Destiny vs Baddar on Break Points

Filed with Sources, Books & Media (MOC) · Related: 60.1 Israel-Palestine · Key Arguments (MOC)

Baddar
- Reconciliation can only happen after the end of apartheid
- Israel brutalizing them day and day out
- “When P. respond with violence out of touch Israelis will get hostile feelings as well”
  - P. not out of touch as well not understanding how Israeli’s have been under threat of violence since 1920s?
- One side (Israel) in charge of everything
  - Illegal occupation
  - Calorie counting for Gaza
  - Checkpoints
  - US pressure needed; not another penny
- Occupation ending -> Talks
- Attack on Mosque at Hebron
- Gaza in a Cage
  - No airport
  - No Seaport
  - Cant go anywhere
- You become a civilian if you drop your gun and go home
- Getting rid of Israel government
- Israel is not better than Hamas
  - Destiny counter
    - Democracy
    - Global pressure response
    - Not total annihilation of Israel
  - Confining to smaller and smaller areas
  - Doing annihilation in slow motion
- If Hamas ran Israel
  - Doesn’t know
    - This says A LOT
  - Starvation
    - 32 by Al Jazaerra
  - “Cant speculate”
  - No question Israel is worse
    - No comparison scale atrocities
      - Counter: US, other countries
    - Its unique
- Hamas
  - Gained support as alternative to PA that was bending over for Israel
- Israel mass indiscriminate bombing of civilian areas
  - Flattening entire neighborhoods
  - Deliberately killing civilians who pose no threat
  - Policy to shock Gaza civilians
  - “power targets”
- What Israeli leaders say
  - Gira Island
    - Policy to punish civilians
  - 2006 invasion of Lebanon
    - 1mil cluster bombs
    - “What we did was monsterous and insane”
  - Netanyahu
    - “Strategy is to thin the population down”
    - Amalik
  - Israeli Solders celebrating Amalik etc.
- Gaza grandmother carrying white flag shot
- Bombing worse than Dresden on Gaza
- Ratio is slow because Israel is doing it in slow motion
  - Possible deniability
- 80% of buildings destroyed
- Displaced 90% of population
  - Counter: Because they just kill them
- Bombing safe zones
  - Counter: Only one; not bombed
    - Shouldn’t Hamas not operate from safe zones and evacuation routes?
  - Safe zones don’t equal evacuation routes
- Roof knocking, leaflets pointless because there’s no place for civilians to go
  - Hamas telling me not to go, killing them
  - IDF giving maps
  - Evacuation routes and going South
- Reframe on how saying “Those evil jews” is saying anti-seminitism for everything and devaluing it and thats bad for Jews
- Brutalizing Oct 7th “hostages” (P. prisoners)
  - Sexual assault
  - Dozens killed
  - 1000s
  - Torture
  - Sexual abuse
- Killed more Israeli hostages than they saved
- Israel doesn’t see P. people as human beings
  - If said P. don’t see Israeli’s as human—they’d say thats racist
Ryan Grimm
- Superpower helping Israeli, none helping P.
  - Counter: Soviet Union
- Oct 7th war was for revenge and ethnic cleansing
  - From Gaza to Iran, the Netanyahu Government Is Endangering Israel’s Survival - Israel News - Haaretz.com
  - This is a crazy idea, not the reason being to stop another attack from Hamas
- Great March of Return
  - Annihilate peaceful protestors
  - 6000 unarmed shot week after week at seperation fence
- War creates less peace
- If Hamas built a civilian bomb shelters, Israel would bomb it
- Israel is bombing entire neighborhoods
- Israel isn’t taking all precautions to protect civilians
- Opinion polls in surrounding Arab states support P. people and want to cut off Israel
- Israel brought in Arafat to suppress the Intifada and turn it into false Oslo process
- Hamas can’t confront Israel eye to eye military wise and use guerilla tactics
- Reason for blockade on Gaza is because they want to punish civilian population and pressure Hamas
- Goal is not killing all the P. for Israel, its clearing and thinning out the population
Destiny
- Idea of one state is ridiculous
- Peace vs War idea
  - P. always have unlimited reservoir of int. people that encourage delusions that if they fight they’ll get a better deal
    - 2000 Camp David
    - Tapa Summit
    - 2008 Emert
    - Oslo Accords
  - Arafat speeches about agreeing and going back on the deal
  - P. need to feel they have something at steak
  - Cant continue to go back to step 1 after defeat over and over
  - P. don’t want peace, they want justice
- Great March of Return
  - UN Report
    - All shooting 50-100m
    - No go zone
    - Analyzed at policing fence
- West Bank, Gaza isn’t occupied
  - International Law isn’t clear
  - 2004 single advisory opinion by UN saying it is
- Oct 7th casualties
  - Numbers don’t support
    - 9 to 1 for historical war deaths
    - Gaza only has 2.5 to 1, 4 to 1
  - Hamas Human Shield behavior
    - Nobody cares about this on P. side
    - Hamas fights in civilian clothes
    - Fights from Hospitals
  - Why hasn’t Hamas tried to protect the civilians pop?
    - Bomb shelters
    - Humanitarian area
    - Collaboration to protect civilians
- “How do you explain the numbers” for civilian death ratio
- Hamas has been breaking International Law for decades with the indiscriminate rocket attacks
- Reason why Arab states have abandoned P.
  - Baddar: Racist
  - Kicked out of Jordan 1970s
  - Assassinated Jordan King in 1952
  - Kicked out of Lebanon
  - Egypt doesn’t want to work with them
- Reason for blockade is because of Second Intifada
- Argument: If Hamas is destroyed, Blockade has to be lifted
- Speech on how its important to have realistic idea and understandings instead these people or gov are evil because with that thinking nothing will ever happen

My Thoughts

The idea that you CAN put pressure on Israel and use your mouth to influence Israel, but that doesn’t work with Hamas, North Korea etc..
Counter emotional stories of whats happening in Gaza

Israeli Civilian Harm Mitigation in Gaza: Gold Standard or Fool’s Gold?

Destiny vs Baddar on Break Points

Baddar

Ryan Grimm

Destiny

My Thoughts