Summary

I need the text you would like me to summarize in order to provide a comprehensive summary.

The book-length versions of these arguments — all in this vault, none previously linked

Heydel-Mankoo is compressing into 60 seconds what three notated books argue at length. Andrews is not.

Backing Heydel-Mankoo’s side:

• The Case for Colonialism (Bruce Gilley) — the maximal version: colonialism was a net benefit, legitimate, and in places welcomed, because it delivered infrastructure, law, education and public health that local alternatives did not. Gilley’s sharpest move is the counterfactual, borrowed from Joan Robinson: “the misery of being exploited by capitalists is nothing compared to the misery of not being exploited at all.” Directly relevant to §7 below (Africa, Development, and Colonialism), where Rafe gestures at this without the evidence base.
• Not Stolen (Jeff Fynn-Paul) — argues “stolen land” distorts the history of the Americas, that there was no centrally planned genocide, and that today’s radical framing derives from 1960s–70s Marxist reinterpretation rather than from the archival record.
• Colonialism - A Moral Reckoning by Nigel Biggar — the moral-philosophy version of the same case, and the most measured of the three.

Backing Andrews’s side: nothing book-length. The only thing in the vault is a 1KB stub on .

Read this as a gap, not a verdict

Three notated books on one side and a stub on the other is a fact about this vault, not about the debate. Andrews’s core empirical claims here — the 1833 compensation being 40% of government income, the traceability of present global inequality to slavery and colonialism — are contested but serious, and they are not tested anywhere in this vault. Walter Rodney’s How Europe Underdeveloped Africa or Hilary Beckles’s Britain’s Black Debt would be the obvious counterweights to read if you want this section to argue rather than confirm.

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Debate Breakdown (Chronological Exchange)

1. Opening Statements

Kehinde Andrews

• Slavery = ongoing harm: Uses Malcolm X “knife” analogy — abolition pulled the knife partway out, but the wound wasn’t healed. Reparations are about healing.
• Compensation injustice: 1833 abolition gave 40% of Britain’s government income (~£100bn today, ~5% GDP) to slave owners, not slaves.
• Enduring inequality: Jamaica, Africa, and Caribbean left impoverished; uprisings like Jamaica 1865 prove conditions unchanged.
• Global inequality: Poorest nations = Black (Africa), richest = white (West). Direct trace to slavery/colonialism.
• Scale of harm: Africa demanded $777 trillion reparations claim in 1999.
• Mechanism: Not individual cheques — instead funds for Black development. Exception: repayment of slave-owner compensation loan (claimed settled in 2014).

Rafe Heydel-Mankoo

• No living victims: Reparations apply in tort law only to direct victims. 200 years = 8 generations — too distant.
• Nietzsche’s healed wound: Dwelling on slavery fosters victimhood.
• Public opinion: Polls show Britons overwhelmingly oppose reparations.
• Modern slavery > historic slavery: Today 10m Africans enslaved (ILO: 7 in 1,000). Comparable to 300 years of transatlantic trade. Arab slave trade ongoing. Yet activists focus on past.
• Caribbean politics: Reparations push = “cash grab” + excuse for corruption.
• Britain’s unique abolition role: Spent vast sums, manpower, Royal Navy patrols to end slavery worldwide.
• Descendants benefited: Caribbean peoples inherited sovereignty + infrastructure (roads, courts, English language, democracy). Life better than if ancestors stayed in Africa.
• Most power argument: “My own grandparents had experiences not different to slavery. They were they were uh deported to Siberia by Joseph Stalin. They were poles. They had all their lands confiscated. They ended up going in cattle tracks where they couldn’t sit down. Going to the gulags in Siberia and Kazakhstan. My great-grandmother who was blind in her 80s died died there. Others were worked to death. I had the communists murder my family in the Katin massacre. The Nazis murdered my Polish Catholic family uh as well at Aschwitz and elsewhere. That’s within the lifetime of my mother. You could argue that my mother had a bad experience about it all. I’m the grandchild. I don’t feel like I’m a victim. I don’t experience intergenerational trauma. Fundamentally affected my lives. We lost all of our properties and estates in Poland and I’m living in a very different lifestyle. But I don’t feel that I’m a victim anyway. And that’s within one generation.”

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2. The 2014 Debt Repayment Claim

• Andrews: His family helped repay the UK loan for slave-owner compensation until 2014 → demands refund.
• Rafe: Treasury tweet misled public. Debt actually cleared by 1927. 2015 bond restructuring only “confirmed” closure. “That reparations cheque won’t be coming.”

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3. Are There Victims Today?

• Moderator: Points to US ghettos — can’t poverty be traced back to slavery?
• Rafe: American case different. In Britain, Black integration smoother (musicians like Howlin’ Wolf welcomed). US poverty tied more to 1960s family breakdown than slavery. His own Polish ancestors faced Stalin/Nazis but he doesn’t claim victimhood. Reparations valid within 1–2 generations (e.g., Holocaust/Japan), not after 8.
• Andrews (later): Poverty in Jamaica and Africa still directly tied to slavery’s legacy. Knife not pulled out, wound unhealed.

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4. Modern vs. Chattel Slavery

• Rafe: Focus should be on today’s slaves (10m Africans, Arab slave trade).
• Andrews: False equivalence. Modern slavery illegal and not systemic. Chattel slavery uniquely dehumanized (legally defined as livestock). Arab slavery mainly servants, not wealth-producing. Atlantic slavery commodified humans and fueled global capitalism.

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5. Did Slavery Power the Industrial Revolution?

• Andrews: Gold, silver, tobacco, indigo, sugar, cotton — all from slave labor. Cities like Manchester and Birmingham built on slave trade infrastructure. UK government’s massive compensation proves slavery’s centrality.
• Rafe: Numbers small:
  • Slavery <5% of economy.
  • Sugar = 2.5% of national income.
  • Sugar capital formation peak = 3%.
  • Fleet: 1.5% ships, 3% tonnage linked to slavery.
  • Contribution akin to barley & hops (beer).
  • Industrial Revolution driven by agrarian revolution, coal, iron, stable institutions, “WEIRD” psychology (Joseph Henrich).
  • Counterexamples: Spain & Portugal imported more gold/slaves but stagnated; US South slave states lagged North’s industry.
• Andrews rebuttal: Portugal, Spain, France didn’t develop as Britain did, but they still advanced relative to Africa/Caribbean. Impossible to discount slavery as underpinning system.

---

6. Who Bears Responsibility?

• Moderator: Africans sold slaves. Should they share blame?
• Andrews: Bad analogy — like blaming Jewish collaborators in Holocaust. African slavery ≠ chattel slavery. Often akin to serfdom; enslaved could marry, earn rights. European chattel slavery was novel, total dehumanization. Africans who sold captives didn’t foresee this.
• Rafe: African/Islamic slavery also brutal — Dahomey sacrificed thousands; Arab castration killed 60%. Not rosy. Why should today’s UK taxpayers (many poor or foreign-born) pay for a tiny elite of past British slave owners?

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7. Africa, Development, and Colonialism

• Rafe:
  • Before colonization (1870s), Africa stagnant: no scientific or economic development comparable to Europe. Life expectancy stuck at 24–35 until European medicine doubled it.
  • Caribbean GDP 10x West Africa.
  • British institutions produced best outcomes (Mauritius, Seychelles).
  • Poll: 60% of Jamaicans said they preferred British rule.
• Andrews:
  • Africa was ahead in Middle Ages (Mali Empire, Timbuktu libraries). Moors influenced European hygiene, science.
  • Europe couldn’t colonize Africa until weakened by centuries of slave extraction.
  • Colonialism/neo-colonialism kept Africa down: e.g., CIA-installed Mobutu in Congo.
  • Corruption itself is a colonial legacy.

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8. Closing Themes

• Andrews: Reparations are about cumulative harm: slavery → colonialism → neo-colonialism. No point in history when debt was repaid; instead, harms piled up (slavery, Jim Crow, third world debt). Wealth vs poverty map proves global white supremacy.

• Rafe: Reparations perpetuate victimhood. Progress requires responsibility, reform within African/Caribbean societies. Western colonialism and capitalism, despite evils, lifted life expectancy and wealth. “Slavery is a healed wound.”

• Europeans weren’t allowed to go ashore onto Africa, it was Africans themselves that sold the slaves to the Europeans

Africa’s underdevelopment and Kehinde’s rebuttal

Rafe’s Argument (~50:15–51:20)

1. Pre-colonial stagnation
   • In 1871, only 10% of Africa was colonized.
   • Africa had thousands of years of history to develop, yet:
     • Life expectancy stayed at 24–35 years from medieval times into the 1800s.
     • No equivalents of European cities, scientific advances, or industrial growth emerged.
   • “Why in 1871, with Africa thousands of years old, was life expectancy still the same? Why didn’t you have any of the scientific advancement elsewhere?”
2. Colonization brought real gains
   • Major improvements only came with Europeans:
     • Medicine, vaccinations, antibiotics
     • Sanitation and clean water
   • Life expectancy doubled under colonial rule.
3. Colonial duration was short
   • Colonization lasted <100 years for most countries (1880s–1950s/70s).
   • Too brief, he says, to account for long-term underdevelopment; rather, it boosted living standards.
4. Colonialism + capitalism = progress
   • Argues they were the two greatest forces in lifting people out of poverty.
   • Quotes Steven Pinker: life in pre-state societies was “incalculably more brutal” than modern life.
5. British imperial legacy
   • Countries with British institutions (Mauritius, Seychelles) score best in Africa on the Human Development Index.
   • Caribbean countries with continuing European ties (Guadeloupe, Martinique, Puerto Rico) outperform independent neighbors.
   • Suggests this shows colonial heritage produces more successful societies.

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Kehinde Andrews’ Rebuttal (~52:58 onward)

1. Africa was advanced
   • Rejects the “Africa was stagnant” view as historical distortion.
   • Examples:
     • Mali Empire and Timbuktu — one library in Timbuktu had more books than all of Europe at the time.
     • Moors from North Africa influenced Europe (1491–1492 conquest of Granada):
       • Introduced hygiene, toilet paper, dining practices, education, and science.
     • Great Zimbabwe and Yoruba kingdoms show complex African civilizations.
2. Europe couldn’t colonize at first
   • Before centuries of slavery, Europe lacked capacity to colonize Africa.
   • Only after Africa was weakened by massive extraction of people and resources through slavery could Europeans colonize.
   • Colonization was possible in the 19th century because slavery had already depleted African societies.
3. Slavery and colonialism destroyed Africa’s trajectory
   • Africa wasn’t “left to its own devices.” It was undermined by slavery:
     • Centuries of extraction changed economies, depopulated regions, and destabilized states.
     • By the 19th century, Europe could dominate because Africa had been structurally weakened.
4. Neo-colonialism continues harm
   • Even after formal decolonization, puppet governments supported by Western powers (e.g., CIA-backed Mobutu in Congo) perpetuated corruption.
   • Corruption is a colonial legacy, not an “African cultural flaw.”
5. The global inequality map
   • Today, the poorest regions are Black (sub-Saharan Africa) and the richest are white (the West).
   • This racialized economic hierarchy is the direct outcome of slavery and colonialism, not inherent African failure.

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Related Points From the Rest of the Debate

On Africa’s comparative position

• Andrews: Before European intrusion, Africa was not “behind.” He stresses literacy, cities, and economic structures in Mali, Timbuktu, Yoruba, and Zimbabwe.
• Rafe: Counters that even non-colonized nations (Ethiopia, Liberia) remain among the poorest. If colonialism caused underdevelopment, why didn’t non-colonized states flourish?

On colonial “benefits”

• Rafe: Life expectancy in Africa doubled due to European medicine, sanitation, and order. Caribbean GDP 10x higher than West Africa’s because of inherited British institutions.
• Andrews: Calls this “psychosis of whiteness” — ignoring the devastation. Infrastructure was built for colonial exploitation, not for African development. Corruption and instability were rooted in colonial manipulation.

On economic causality

• Rafe: Slavery and colonialism minor (<5% GDP, sugar 2.5% national income). Industrial Revolution explained by domestic British factors.
• Andrews: Britain’s industrial and urban expansion was tied to slavery’s commodities (cotton, sugar, gold, silver). Cities like Manchester wouldn’t exist without Atlantic slavery.

On responsibility

• Rafe: Modern Africans should look inward: corruption, family breakdown, poor educational culture are present-day obstacles.
• Andrews: That narrative ignores history. Conditions were imposed by slavery/colonialism, not cultural deficiencies. “The knife was never pulled out.”

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Synthesis of the 50-Minute Clash

• Rafe’s thesis: Africa’s underdevelopment is not due to slavery/colonialism because the continent had millennia to develop before colonization, showed stagnation, and only advanced under European influence. Colonialism and capitalism were short-lived but transformative for health and living standards.
• Andrews’ counter-thesis: Africa was advanced, but slavery and colonialism violently derailed its progress, drained populations, and underdeveloped the continent. What looks like “stagnation” was in fact devastation. Modern corruption is a colonial legacy, not an African one.

Extended Debate: Africa, Development, and Colonialism (50:00–1:00+)

Rafe (≈50:15–52:00) — Initial Claim

• In 1871, only 10% of Africa was colonized.
• Africa had thousands of years of history but:
  • Life expectancy stayed 24–35 years for centuries.
  • No equivalents of European cities or scientific revolutions emerged.
• Major improvements (medicine, sanitation, doubling of life expectancy) only came under European colonization.
• Colonization lasted <100 years for most nations.
• Argues colonialism + capitalism were the two greatest forces for raising global living standards.
• Notes African nations with British heritage (Mauritius, Seychelles) perform best on the Human Development Index.

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Kehinde’s Rebuttal (≈52:58–55:40)

• Africa was not backward:
  • Timbuktu libraries had more books than all of Europe.
  • Mali Empire, Great Zimbabwe, Yoruba kingdoms show high literacy, trade, urbanization.
  • Moors’ conquest of Spain (1492) introduced hygiene, science, and culture into Europe.
• Europe couldn’t colonize Africa at first:
  • For centuries, Europe lacked capacity.
  • Only after slavery weakened Africa through massive extraction could colonization succeed.
• Colonial/neo-colonial disruption:
  • Africa’s trajectory was derailed by slavery, colonialism, and later puppet governments (e.g., CIA-backed Mobutu in Congo).
  • Corruption today is legacy of these interventions, not inherent African weakness.

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Rafe (≈55:50–57:15) — Pushback

• Challenges the Timbuktu/Mali claim: says Africa never developed equivalents of European science or industry.
• Notes Moors were North African/Islamic, not “sub-Saharan Africa,” so their achievements shouldn’t be attributed to Africa as a whole.
• Africa is vast; only West Africa was supplying slaves, and central regions were untouched yet still underdeveloped.
• Suggests Andrews exaggerates isolated examples rather than showing continent-wide development.

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Andrews (≈57:30–59:10) — Counter

• Argues Africa must be seen as a complex continent, not dismissed as stagnant.
• West Africa was systematically depopulated and destabilized by the slave trade.
• Colonization and the Atlantic system reshaped economies for Europe’s benefit.
• Europe’s “rise” is inseparable from Africa’s exploitation.
• Reframes “Africa was left alone but didn’t advance” as a distortion — Africa was not left alone, it was drained.

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Rafe (≈59:20–1:02:00) — Reinforcement

• Examples of independence failure:
  • Ethiopia & Liberia weren’t colonized, yet remain among the poorest nations.
  • Argues this disproves Andrews’ “colonialism caused underdevelopment” thesis.
• Colonialism was short:
  • From the 1880s to 1950s/70s = <100 years. Too brief to be the sole explanation for long-term poverty.
• Caribbean poll: 60% of Jamaicans in a survey wished Britain had stayed, citing better governance.
• European institutions matter: countries that kept British/French governance links (e.g., Guadeloupe, Martinique, Puerto Rico) outperform fully independent neighbors.
• Corruption: Africa’s failures largely due to internal governance, not slavery. Zimbabwe and South Africa declined when strong institutions were undermined.

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Andrews (≈1:02:10–1:05:00) — Response

• Ethiopia/Liberia argument flawed:
  • Ethiopia was “independent” but surrounded by colonized neighbors, making genuine independent development impossible.
  • Liberia was an American colonial project, not an organically independent state.
• Neo-colonialism:
  • Many African leaders installed/supported by Western powers (e.g., Mobutu) looted nations with Western backing.
  • This is why “corruption” cannot be divorced from colonial legacy.
• Psychosis of whiteness:
  • Rafe’s framing (that colonialism improved Africa) ignores devastation and piles of debt added across history (slavery → colonialism → Cold War neo-colonialism).
  • “The knife was never pulled out; more was piled onto the wound.”

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Integrated Flow (50:00–1:05+)

1. Rafe: Africa stagnated for millennia, only advanced with European medicine/colonialism; colonization was short and largely beneficial.
2. Andrews: Africa was advanced (Mali, Timbuktu, Moors). Europe couldn’t colonize until Africa weakened by slavery. Corruption today is colonial legacy.
3. Rafe: Moors = North Africa, not sub-Saharan. Ethiopia/Liberia prove independence didn’t equal progress. Colonial rule too short to explain poverty.
4. Andrews: Ethiopia surrounded/undermined; Liberia artificial. Neo-colonialism propped up dictators. Corruption rooted in colonial interventions.
5. Clash crystallized:
   • Rafe: Colonialism/capitalism brought progress; Africa’s issues stem from internal failings.
   • Andrews: Colonialism/slavery underdeveloped Africa and its legacy explains present inequality.

Content

Transcript

Introduction

0:01

My family from Jamaica, so I have direct heritage here. The harm has never actually been addressed. The problem is there are no victims of

0:06

British Empire slavery today. You can’t have intergenerational trauma for eight generations. It’s simply absurd.

0:13

Every single thing that powered industrial revolution was slavery labor. The contribution of say uh of slavery to

0:19

the British economy was less than 5%. It’s a distortions of white historians that just can’t accept

0:24

that’s racist. Now that’s racist. It’s not racist. True. the psychosis of whiteness. It’s this rosy eye view of

0:31

the world where you can ignore what’s happened historically. Ignore the implications which are very clear today.

0:37

When Europeans came in for they weren’t massively techn more technologically advanced. It’s eugenics. It’s a eugenics

0:42

dressed up in something else. Cultural racism. Can you explain why the poorest part of the world is black and the

0:47

richest part of the world is white? Relax. Relax. This isn’t an ad. If

0:54

you’re not a fan of ads, but love trigonometry, join the thousands of trigonometry members who get extended

0:59

interviews, no ads, early access, and the ability to submit questions for upcoming guests. Sign up now at

1:06

triggerpod.co.uk or click the link in the description of this episode.

1:13

Welcome to Trigonometry Debates. The subject for today is reparations and slavery. Should Britain and other

1:18

Western countries pay them? I’m delighted to be joined by former trigonometry guest and historian and

1:23

broadcaster Ray Helmanu. Welcome. And I will get this your name wrong even though you corrected me and I want to

1:29

get it right. Kahende Kayendi. K. See, I told you. Kayende Kendra Andrews who is Britain’s first

1:35

professor of black studies, academic and broadcasters. Well, welcome to you both. Really appreciate you coming. I probably

1:40

don’t need to say which side either of you arguing for. You’re both well known in these positions. Um, I want both of

Kehinde’s Opening Statement

1:46

you to have a chance to set your stall out. So six seven minutes each kind of. Would you like to go first?

1:52

Yeah. So yeah, thanks for being thanks for the invitation. I mean I think the key thing with this when we think about reparations for slavery is we have the

1:58

frame that we’re using is just wrong and there’s so many because it’s wrong we just get the debate wrong. So if you actually think about reparation for

2:04

slavery correctly, there really is no argument against no good argument. Right? The way I’d put it is I’d use my

2:10

favorite Malcolm X who says if you stick a knife in my back 9 in and pull it at 6 in, we haven’t made any progress. Even

2:17

if you pull it all the way out, we still haven’t made any progress. You actually have to heal the wound. Now, what we think of is slavery as something that

2:23

was long ago, a distant arm that happened and ended. That is clearly nonsensical. If slavery is a knife going

2:28

into upbacks, um, and then abolition is probably pulling at 3 in. But on

2:34

abolition, and particularly, look at Britain. On abolition, the enslaved who Britain, my family from Jamaica, so I have direct heritage here. Um the

2:41

enslaved who worked for 300 years on the island with no pay in abject poverty when when slavery was abolished got zero

2:47

nothing. The slave owners got the largest payer in in in British government history 100 billion is

2:53

actually the number we should have equivalent 40% of income 5% of GDP at the time was given to the slave owners.

2:59

So what does that do? That entrenches the wealth and that entrenches the poverty. So after slavery ends it’s not like this is done and finished. Then we

3:06

have to live in Jamaica on a colony slave colony still living in the same kind of conditions. There’s a reason why 1865, 30 years after slavery is

3:13

abolished in Jamaica, there’s a massive uprising because the conditions are still terrible. Even now, go forward the

3:19

100 200 years because the wealth from slavery is still there and the poverty from slavery is still there. The harm

3:24

has never actually been addressed and it’s very clear to trace. So, we shouldn’t think of slavery as something which happened a long time ago and

3:30

therefore we should be past it because the the harm was never addressed and because it then continued with colonialism, with modern-day racism. Why

3:38

did my family move here in the first place from Jamaica? It wasn’t a voluntary thing. It was because they

3:43

were put in deep poverty and there was no there was no society where they could get jobs. So they had had to come here. And what did they find when they came to

3:49

the UK? Racism, segregation, etc., etc., etc. So if you’re going to look at the

3:54

black and white wealth gap in in the UK, in the Caribbean, in the world, it is impossible to not trace that directly to

4:01

slavery. And actually when you think about the arguments of slave uh reparations of slavery which have come from Caribbean countries which have come

4:07

from American countries which have come from Africa as well another massive misconception here is that Africa

4:12

doesn’t have benefited from slavery. This is completely ridiculous. Africa was destroyed by slavery. Africa’s economy was ruined by slavery to the

4:19

point where in 1999 um there was a Pacific claim from the African continent for $777 trillion dollars to repay the

4:27

damage in the Caribbean and the damage to Africa. There is no way to explain why black black people today um are at

4:34

you look at most statistics are at the bottom of the economic poll uh look at statistics around life expectancy at the

4:39

bottom of that look at and then look at why the poor richest part of the world is is the west where the white people

4:44

live is is the richest that’s directly down to slavery. So if there is literally no doubt that there is a debt

4:52

owed a large debt that is owed and really reparations usually fall down on how do you do it like what’s the

4:58

practicality of paying reparations which is a different question but on the principle of should there be reparations

5:03

there really like I said there’s no actual good argument there’s just a lot of obsiscation what about

5:09

and mis completely misunderstanding the debate like I said the knife is very difficult to argue the knife is more

5:15

than 6 in out of the back of black people since slavery if you look global economy today. So until it’s out and

5:20

until the wound is healed, reparations have to be due. Since you haven’t used all your time, can I just ask one followup before Rafe

5:27

jumps in which is about the practicality of this, which is you say it’s a separate issue, but do you have some thoughts on how it might actually be

5:33

done? Cuz for a lot of people, I think that’s actually quite a big question. They might instinctively agree with the idea that clearly some something is

5:41

owed, but without knowing what the route of doing that is, and that might be the the obstacle for them.

5:47

Yes. So I mean I actually I think the worst way to do it would be individual reparations. So like I don’t need slave

5:53

own slave reparations. But look actually no the one bearer I do want my own individual slave uh reparations would be

5:59

um the the British government took this loan out to pay for uh the slave owner slave owner reparations that was so

6:05

large it wasn’t paid back until 2014. Which means myself, my family, all my family descended from the enslaved

6:12

actually paid slave owner compensation. I do want that money back. I think that should be an individual payment. I I’ll

6:17

have that money back. But generally speaking, it’s about you would set up a fund in the UK and America, you would

6:25

for the the for the support development of black people. If you look at the caraccom countries, they’re asking for two nation states rather than two

6:31

individuals. I’m not always a big fan of the Caribbean nation states and how they manage their money. I’ll be honest, but certainly not individual. It is about

6:39

how do you how do you set up some kind of fund that can be used to develop black community because this is the problem because of this economic damage

6:45

that was done and hasn’t ever been restored. This is why we’re behind in the world. And so you have to have some mechanism, some fund, some tool, some

6:52

way that can um that we can use the money to address that and to address that balance. Ra,

6:58

well thanks for having me and thanks for having this discussion. Uh just to correct you a bit Kahindi, you and your

7:03

mother or grandmother weren’t paying any money. Uh this is a quite an often

7:09

quoted uh aspect about payment of reparation that it didn’t end until 2014, the repayment of the loan. And

7:15

it’s quite you can’t it’s not your fault. There was a tweet put out by the Treasury which was extremely ill advised

7:20

and mistaken. What happened was that the the slave owner’s debt was actually repaid somewhere between 1835 and 1927.

7:28

And the confusion arises because the way in which Britain financed its debt. It was using undated guilts. And before

7:33

1927, we don’t actually have any idea or any record of when those guilts were redeemed. So they was it was probably

7:40

paid off before 1927. Uh what happened was in 2015 uh the British government

7:45

modernized its guilt portfolios and redeemed all of its undated guilts. And so therefore they could confirm

7:50

categorically well it must have been paid by this point because we’ve we’ve covered everything prior to that but

7:56

actually was at least 100 years older. So I’m afraid that reparations check won’t be coming uh over to you. I hear

Rafe’s Opening Statement

8:01

it from my great grand she definitely plays. Um but anyway uh oh one yeah and you

8:06

mentioned you mentioned Malcolm X also and and and the wound. Well it reminds me of uh Nichch’s uh genealogy on

8:12

morality where he spoke about people who claw at a healed wound and when it bleeds and is painful then moan about

8:19

the pain. And I would argue that slavery is a healed wound in in in the west in

8:24

Britain and the west and essentially we are clawing at a wound that we don’t need to claw at any longer and I think

8:30

the British people understand that. So for example all polling shows that the vast majority of the British public are

8:36

overwhelmingly opposed to the idea of reparations and they understand you know that the abolition of the slave trade

8:42

happened more than 200 years ago and Britain was the leading force in the abolition of the slave trade. uh

8:49

reparations is a matter of tort law and the whole concept of tort law is to put the victim back into the position they

8:55

were in before the damage was caused. The problem is there are no victims of British Empire slavery today. We’re

9:01

talking about uh five between five and eight generations ago. Um I would also

9:07

say that uh for many people well certainly I would hope would understand that for many on the left this issue

9:13

isn’t actually about slavery at all. Um, we talk about reparations and slavery, but quite often for the left, this is

9:19

actually a weapon with which to attack and undermine Britain and America, and it’s rooted in a deep hatred of the West

9:26

more broadly. In terms of Caribbean politicians, I would say two things. Firstly, it’s clearly an avaricious cash

9:33

grab to uh try to profit and capitalize and exploit uh naive Western guilt. I

9:39

would also say that it’s an attempt to uh deflect attention away from the corruption and the catastrophic

9:46

mismanagement of the economies of the institutions and the infrastructures of the Caribbean nations by corrupt and uh

9:55

incompetent and substandard Caribbean politicians. Um, now I am confident in

10:01

saying all of that because if this were really about slavery, then the people who are most vocal about the plight of

10:09

black people and the the plight of slavery would surely be just as vocal, I would say even more vocal about the far

10:16

more pressing issue, which is the plight of modern slaves today. The International Labor Organization says

10:22

that seven in every 1,000 Africans today is a slave. That’s 10 million people

10:28

today living horrific lives. To put that into context, in the 300, it took 300

10:33

years of the transatlantic slave trade to transport 10 million people. And that’s a number uh that we have today.

10:41

It seems to me quite clear that what is more important looking uh speaking out

10:47

and drawing attention to the plight of 10 million slaves, drawing attention to the Arab slave trade which continues to

10:54

this day where Africans are still shipped to the Middle East as slaves. Is that more important or is harking back

11:00

to historical injustices from 200 years ago? I would say that is the key moral question to which there is only one

11:06

answer. And yet all the people that I’ve spoken to and debated on this subject who have been very vocal and write lots

11:11

of articles about slavery, not once did they address the issue of modern slavery in the plight of black slaves today. And

11:18

not once did they speak about historical slavery in the context of the non-white actors. The af you there were more

11:24

Africans held in bondage by other Africans than were ever transported outside of the uh outside of Africa. So

11:32

I think those are the crucial ways to to look at it. And I think therefore you can say that there is an ulterior motive

11:38

motive here which is politically and ideologically motivated. But to go and look at look at the history of this uh

11:44

few things to say. Firstly, of course slavery was an abomination. What happened to 19th century slaves was

11:49

utterly horrific and reprehensible and if they were alive they would be absolutely deserving of reparations. But

11:55

I cannot see the connection whereby their great great great great great grandchild is a victim. They’re clearly

12:01

not a victim. On the contrary, the lives of the descendants of slaves today in Britain and the Caribbean is

12:06

incalculably better than if their ancestors had never left West Africa. Uh secondly, Britain has more than paid its

12:13

debt uh for for slavery. Uh, you know, slavery was universal, but Britain was the first country to make itself

12:20

deliberately poorer, to pursue a moral good, the abolition of the slave trade, expending vast sums in men, in money, in

12:27

in resources, to enforce an end to the slave trade on the high seas, but also to go into Africa and stop Africans

12:33

enslaving other Africans. I would also say that actually a form of reparations

12:38

has already been paid. You know, the black slave descendants are not the indigenous peoples of the Caribbean

12:43

islands. With independence, they became the legal owners and the rulers of

12:49

territory they never previously owned. That’s a form of reparations. And also, they inherited all the thing the great

12:56

things that the British Empire created at great expense. Roads, schools, hospitals, power stations, and

13:02

infrastructure. the police, the civil service, the army, uh the judiciary, uh

13:09

parliament, democracy and the rule of law, the English language, all the things that were necessary to make sure that the

13:16

Caribbean countries could become successful middle- inome countries, far richer than their their African

13:21

comrades. Anyway, that’s my opening piece. Well, I heard a lot of sighing from this side, but before you get into

13:27

it, may I just ask one follow up with you, Ra, as well, which is, can you really say with a straight face that

13:34

there are no victims of slavery today? I mean, you you go to America, you travel

13:40

around British Empire slavery, I say, okay, but but but that’s exactly what I’m saying. So if you go to America and

13:46

you look at the some of the ghettos in the cities in the United States and the way that people live there, is it really

13:53

so hard to trace that back to a history of real horrific racism legislation that

13:58

prevented black people from living the same way that their white fellow citizens were and then of course being

14:04

transported there and used as slave labor without being paid. Wouldn’t all those things across generations have

14:11

exactly the sort of impact that we now see on the ground? So two things. Firstly, I’m not talking about the American experience. I think

14:17

racism is a massive issue in America to a degree we don’t know or understand in this country here. Race is a huge divide

14:24

in the United States, which it never was here. I mean, for example, you know, if you look uh from the from the 19th

Is the West Uniquely Guilty of Slavery?

14:31

century onwards at black Americans who came to the UK, they were amazed at the warm reception they they received. Look

14:36

at people like Howling Wolf, Great Blues, Otus Reading, and others who were housed by white people in houses. the

14:43

experience of of black people in this country was wholly different but they were brought to America by the

14:48

British Empire. So, so, so, so, so, well, no, the it was the Americans who brought them to, to America, remember?

14:55

Um, but also let’s select that’s one point, but secondly, you know, if you look at the decline and and great deal

15:00

of the poverty that’s afflicted uh American black people, it has resulted basically from the destruction of the

15:06

family post 1960s. That’s when you saw a huge massive decline in the security and

15:11

prosperity of so many families. You look at the decline, you look at the decline of Harlem in the 1920s and all sorts of

15:16

things on that levels. But I’m not here to debate them the American situation. What I will say, if you’re going to talk about intergenerational trauma, we’re

15:23

talking about eight generations in this country, right? 200 years. A generation is 25 years. That’s your great great

15:28

great great grandchildren. My own grandparents had experiences not

15:33

different to slavery. They were they were uh deported to Siberia by Joseph Stalin. They were poles. They had all

15:39

their lands confiscated. They ended up going in cattle tracks where they couldn’t sit down. Going to the gouags

15:45

in Siberia and Kazakhstan. My great-grandmother who was blind in her 80s died died there. Others were worked

15:52

to death. I had the communists murder my family in the Katin massacre. The Nazis murdered my Polish Catholic family uh as

15:59

well at Avitz and elsewhere. That’s within the lifetime of my mother. You

16:05

could argue that my mother had a bad experience about it all. I’m the grandchild. I don’t feel like I’m a victim. I don’t experience

16:10

intergenerational trauma. Fundamentally affected my lives. We lost all of our properties and estates in Poland and I’m

16:16

living in a very different lifestyle. But I don’t feel that I’m a victim anyway. And that’s within one generation. That’s why I support

16:23

reparations uh within one or two generations. I think it was right for the Germans to pay reparations to Poland. I think it was right and to the

16:29

Jews. I think it was right for Japan to pay reparations. But not when we’re talking about eight generations. There

16:34

comes a point where you need to stop playing the victim. And unfortunately that’s what that’s why I talk about

16:40

nature and chlor and clawing at a at a wound that’s healed. Uh the more you

16:45

talk about the fact that we are in this position because of other people. We need to actually uh depend on other

16:51

people for handouts and begging the less you take away your agency and the idea of personal responsibility. And I think

16:57

a lot of this the trauma that’s being talked about has been festered by this constant negativity and focus. Whereas

17:03

if you look at places like Singapore for example also a backwards colony where they essentially turned it things around

17:09

created a great industry. We talk about India being an oppressed uh colonized state. They managed to turn things

17:14

around super well. Poland went 150th poorest richest country in the world to turn things around.

17:20

So great. Well we can we can debate India on another occasion because we can have an equally long debate about that. So I

17:26

think the time comes when you have to start looking within your own community. What is it within our community that is

17:31

stopping us from progressing and succeeding rather than looking elsewhere? Why why do we have a youth

17:37

culture that celebrates violence and misogyny and homophobia and that’s openly supported? Why do we have single

17:42

parent families where the fathers aren’t involved? No, slavery was explained to but look at those reasons and and why

17:49

why do AfroCaribbean families not encourage their children enough in education to the same degree that you

17:54

see with Chinese and Indian and Indian truth. So coming up with factual untruth

17:59

that does not well why don’t you address you were signed for a long time so I imagine you have lots of things to say. Uh go all

18:06

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18:13

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18:25

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18:32

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18:38

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18:45

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become your lifelong self-directed IRA partner. I mean, like I said at the start, there’s no good arguments. All we’ve

19:47

heard here is what what what a bad is complete nonsensical. Like if so, if we just if it was right to give, as far as

19:54

I understand your argument, it would have been correct to give reparations in 1838.

19:59

Yes. Yeah. Absolutely. So that didn’t happen. And because that didn’t happen, there is a consequence

20:05

that the poverty is still there and the wealth is still there. So how can you possibly hold the argument in your head that if it was right to do it and you

20:11

don’t do it, then there’s no consequences for not doing it. I mean that’s simple. Take you’re talking about

20:16

I don’t race doesn’t exist here. I’m sorry. Jama like I’ve heard it very far before about this and tends to focus on

20:22

Jamaican on Caribbean countries like Barbados, Antigga, small countries, small islands which have had been able

20:27

to manage colonism a little bit better. Right? Jamaica has a population that is bigger than Barbados, Santgo, most of

20:33

the Caribbean put together. There are ghettos in Jamaica. The make American ghettos look like like like like literally friendly. None of us would

20:39

walk through them today. And that you can and as you said, we wouldn’t even be there. There should be no black people

20:45

in Jamaica at all. Yeah. 80% of 80 to 90% of the population live there. And most of them live in conditions of

20:50

poverty that we wouldn’t accept. So no, the Caribbean isn’t this great wonderful place that people live in. It’s all wonderful to be in. compare the audacity

20:58

to suggest that because Jamaica is somewhat doing better than the African countries, therefore you are lucky to be

What About Modern Slavery Today?

21:04

in Jamaica. Well, that’s nonsense. And again, as I said before, one of the biggest

21:09

because I don’t understand what worry for saying is these people are better off and I’m not saying

21:15

I mean are they relatively better off? Yes. But again, this is the this is the biggest misconception about slavery is that slavery when we talk about

21:21

reparations, we’re just talking about the descendants of the enslaved. Africa did not benefit from slavery. Africa was

21:26

devastated by slavery. Slavery utterly destroyed the economy of the African continent. When Europe came into Africa,

21:33

Europe couldn’t colonize like it was not possible. Europe Africa was ahead of Europe. It is centuries of slavery

21:39

drawing out people, changing the economy. That means that Africa becomes diluted if you like, weakened to the point where in the 19th century uh

21:46

European countries can take over. There’s a reason why most African countries are colonized for less than

21:51

100 years. Europe just wasn’t able to do it. Slavery completely destroyed the continent which is why there was a claim

21:57

in 1999 for 777 trillion. So if I was going to explain why is Niger why is the

22:02

life expectancy in Nigeria 54? Why is the poorest part of the world by GDP per capita so-called subsahar in Africa?

22:08

It’s not coincidental that that is the place the enslaves were taken from. That is the reason for it. So yes, we might

22:14

be slightly better off in the Caribbean um than than they are in Africa. But both both of those things are about

22:20

slavery and there’s both a harm that needs to be repaired. The other thing I I’ll send you my book, New Age of

22:25

Empire. I am someone who talked deeply about the Islamic slave trade. Of course, the Islamic slave trade. In

22:30

fact, without the Islamic slave trade, there probably is no European slave trade. Well, Europe doesn’t really have

22:35

new ideas and just tend to copy other ideas. So, the Islamic slave trade was horrendous. Had a massive impact. But

22:40

the key difference, and this is why the reparations claim is so important, is in the Arab slave trade, um the it was

22:47

predominantly about uh servants. So it’s mostly women. It was mostly about servants. It was mostly they wasn’t wealth producing. Right? There the money

22:53

in the Arab slave trade was the traders. There’s actually stories of Arab slave traders who have so much money and they have nowhere to spend it. So what claim

23:00

can I make to to a system that does didn’t produce money? The difference no

23:05

but didn’t produce produce wealth for the traders but it didn’t produce society. The difference between the

23:11

major difference between well there’s two major differences why again we should never never never ever think that

23:16

modern day so-called slavery is the same as shadow slavery. It is not. Shadow slavery is a reduction of someone to a

23:22

horse a cow a and in English law by the way not American law and for 150 years

23:28

the people was the British Empire taking people to America but the um there’s no

23:33

comparison of modern day slavery. It’s a bad thing. Don’t get me wrong. We shouldn’t even call it slavery. the difference between the Arab slave trade

23:39

and the and the um I’m not sure modern day slaves will feel the same way about you. No words trivializing the horror

23:46

for for one modern day slavery is illegal. It’s a crime. Slavery was not it was it was the thing that we all did.

23:54

No no you can’t you can’t compare the two. You’re not you’re not shadow or you’re not you’re not you’re not literally legally defi legally defined

24:01

as non-human which is what my ancestors were legally defined as a horse and a cow by the English courts which is why

24:08

America then carried on slavery by the way anyway my point is the difference between the Arab slave trade which

24:13

didn’t build Arabic society was mostly I said mostly servants is terrible I’m not saying Arab slave trade was great it was

24:18

horrendous but European slavery it turned us into commodities and it powered the industrial revolution I’ve

24:23

heard you argue before this isn’t true every single thing that powers the industrial revolution. First it’s gold,

24:28

then it’s silver, then it’s tobacco, then it’s indigo, then it’s cotton. Every single thing that powered in this

24:34

revolution was slaves at labor. Name which one of those things did not come from? Which one of those things did not

24:41

come? We need to very long answers which are making let’s stick on this. Let’s stick on this.

24:46

Which one of those five standing things did not revolution the industrial re if you look at the the

24:53

top five? So the arguments that have been made by you and by professor Beckles are that the industrial revolution was caused by profits from

24:59

the slave trade that it was caused by profits from the sugar industry and that it’s under it’s underinvestment and

25:06

underdevelopment by cotton in the empire. That that that’s right cotton was not a British Caribbean

25:12

commodity that was from America. That wasn’t part Yeah. But that was not part of that’s not part of the reparations argument.

25:19

It should be No, it should be. It’s a bad argument, is it? So look so there why what gets me is people on

25:25

the left always look for a bad reason behind any excellence on part of the west it couldn’t be because of British

25:32

genius or because of situations and circumstances in this country that we got the industrial revolution there has

25:37

to be a nefarious cause of any great western achievement the industrial revolution happened because firstly you

25:43

had the agricultural revolution in the 17th century which led to a surplus of labor which meant you had an excess

25:48

labor force that was then available ble to go in to industry. You had abundant natural resources where you could

25:54

literally pick up coal off the ground and you had iron resources. You had innovation and technology which was far

26:01

in far in excess of what else happened elsewhere. And the reason you had such engineering and innovation technology if

26:06

you read Joseph, Professor Joseph Hinrich from Harvard University’s book which we discussed on your show on on the weirdest minds in the world, the

26:12

weird weirdest people in the world, the western mind by the 18th and 19th century was fundamentally different in how it viewed the world to the

26:18

accidental mind. just doing racism. We’re actually just going to say racism

26:24

is better. Why is that racist different? Come on. Come on.

26:30

Funamentally different. I said well different and then it leads to great wealth. That means you’re saying better. That’s a racist fundamentally

26:36

different rac and medicine discoveries that came out of Europe versus the rest of the world.

26:42

If you’d like we can take a science to finish the points here. We also had in Britain we had institutional stability

26:49

which you didn’t have elsewhere especially in Europe at this time as well. So we had political stability. We had the environment that was able to

26:55

become conducive to the industrial revolutionary. We also had the financial markets which were unparalleled

27:01

elsewhere. We had the point we had we had the structures through through the stock market where you could actually

27:07

create these sorts of situations. Uh and so yes of course we had trade routes and we had access to raw materials but you

27:14

cannot deny you. No. Well, if you look from 179, you got to let them finish. 1798 to 1802 was the 5-year period which

27:22

saw the most slave ships. All right. During if you look at and if you look at 1792, for example, the peak year for

27:27

slavery, there were 204 slave ships. British total vessels were 14,000.

27:34

Slavery accounted for 1.5% of the total British fleet. Uh 3% of

27:40

tonnage. the contribution of say uh of of slavery to the British economy was less than 5%. It made certain people

27:47

very rich. That’s why you get some great country houses. It made places like Bristol and Liverpool very rich. But the

27:53

amount of money we’re talking about is so small that it didn’t have any consequential effect on the on the on

27:58

the British nation as a whole. If you look at the sugar industry, which is is claimed it was fundamental for the for

28:04

the industrial revolution, that amounted to 2.5% of net British national income.

28:10

coal uh sheep farming, woolen industry, iron were all much higher than that. In 1770, which was the peak year for

28:17

capital formation for sugar, it only accounted for 3% of capital formation. If sugar was such a hot commodity, such

Did The British Empire Do Any Good?

28:23

a great investment, you would have had money pouring into it from all other industries, you didn’t get that. In fact, if you look at flax and linen from

28:30

Scotland and Ireland, they became much more of a revenue generator for the British economy, far higher than sugar.

28:36

Nobody has said that without flax and linen you wouldn’t have had the industrial revolution. In fact, the

28:41

contribution of sugar to the British economy was the same as barley and hops from which you make beer. And I don’t

28:46

recall anyone saying that beer was fundamental for the industrial revolution. Now, let me

28:54

stick on No, let’s stick let’s stick on the the topic that we’re on. Again, this is what there’s a quote this distortions

29:00

of white historians that just can’t accept that’s racist. implying that a white

29:06

historian is incapable of approaching a subject from an impartial perspective which means that you must have an

29:11

equally biased perspective as a black look at the history of white historians which you’re paring right now and it will tell you the truth it’s not it’s me

29:17

looking at it and going well I remember I was in A level history I did this I did industrial revolution and a level history got an A because I wrote a paper

29:23

that said white people are great that’s basically the argument that you just made and when I asked my teacher I said what about slavery which at the time I

29:29

didn’t really know much about I was like who knows what happened at the same time is it a coincidence His response was um

29:36

that’s not in the textbook. Let’s never talk about it again. And this is the classic nonsense you get from historians like this. How could you possibly say

29:44

no? Let me let me finish. Let me finish. You talk about the we had financial stability. Talk about the stock market.

29:50

Gold and silver are the first two things which are so important to European development. Where did gold and silver come from? I don’t remember there being

29:55

any gold and silver just lying around Europe. No, no historian worth their salt would say that what they tend to

30:01

what how they tend to whitewash is this is they call it the Atlantic system. Going over to the west finding the Americas, no historian worth their salt

30:07

would not say that that is the fundamental turning point of Western development. It would be un it’d be

30:13

impossible not to unless you unless you’re just going to close your eyes and go no no no D and say it’s just things

30:18

in Europe. Like I said the key commodities not just sugar. I didn’t just list sugar. I told you gold, silver, tobacco, indigo, sugar, and

30:25

cotton. And no, you can’t forget cottonless cuz it’s American slave produced. Oh, no, no, wait. This is important cuz it’s not just Bristol and

30:30

Liverpool, whole cities that really wouldn’t exist. Manchester doesn’t exist unless there’s a there’s a can canal

30:37

that goes from Liverpool to Manchester. It brings all this slave produced cotton. Birmingham, where I’m from, the guns for slavery, the chains for

30:44

slavery. The whole economy is underpinned by this. You can’t just take off the Atlantic system and say it doesn’t matter because there weren’t

30:49

that many slave ships. That’s again no good arguments. All we’re getting is well let’s let’s discount let’s forget a

30:55

bail let’s not let’s and if and if and if if your if what you’re saying is true why would the British government give

31:01

the biggest bailout it’s ever given cuz the only comparable bailout is to the banks but that was apparently alone

31:06

right we got that back there’s no comparison to the 100 billion 40% of 40% of the government’s 40%

31:12

comparison what you’re saying this no it’s not because no you asked a question so now you let you said why

31:18

would they do 40% and that’s not you you know that’s the truth 40% of government income to bail out slave owners if it

31:23

wasn’t a big deal. So firstly, it wasn’t the biggest loan ever given. There was much more money loan. No, it wasn’t a loan at all. Hold

31:29

on. You’re right. It wasn’t it wasn’t it wasn’t it wasn’t the biggest payment ever given. There was far more done in a single year of the Napoleonic war than

31:35

it was done. And same thing with the Crimean. The other point to make is of course this is an issue of

31:41

real politique, right? We don’t live in an idealist world. We have to deal with reality on the ground. The House of

31:47

Commons was not the full functioning democracy it is today. If there was any hope of securing freedom for the slaves,

31:54

they it had to be done through payment. There was no other means for the British state to get it through parliament.

31:59

Look, this was if it was a moral I’m not sure if you’re aware of rotten bars and how parliament

32:04

if it’s a moral issue wasn’t yes sometimes you have abolition but you still have unfortunately corruption in

32:09

the in the 18th and 19th centuries you still had a degree of corruption in the British parliament still far less than

32:14

anywhere else but it was still enough there that you had to essentially ensure that people were paid for it is not

32:20

pleasant but that was the only way so what would you rather done no money would have been paid and the slaves

32:25

would have remained in bond bondage for the foreseeable future until enough before the abolitionist movement was strong enough to actually convey

32:31

everybody that needed to be that needed to be done. But the other arguments are so nonsensical. Let me let me address

32:37

them. For example, by your argument, Portugal and Spain should have been the first countries to

32:42

industrialize. Spain was getting all of the gold. Portugal had double the number of slaves of Great Britain. Yet, they

32:50

became economic backwaters. Why was that? France had seven times the amount

32:56

of coffee. It had 17 times the amount of sugar exported and of indigo exported.

33:01

So indigo, cotton, uh sugar, far more than Britain Britain got from the

33:07

Caribbean slave from Caribbean slaves. They weren’t the first to industrialize. It was Britain that was the first to

33:12

industrialize. And as a share of the Portuguese economy, the the the Brazilian Portuguese slave trade was far

33:18

more lucrative for the Portuguese economy from the British economy. They didn’t industrialize. Look at the United

33:24

States of America, the deep south, which was the slave owning states. They didn’t industrialize. It was the emancipated

33:30

north of this of the country that was the first to industrialize. Now, look at all that look at all those examples. And

33:36

don’t get sidetracked here. We’re talking about Spain, France, Portugal, all of this. How come how come how come

33:41

those countries didn’t become the first to industrialize when I’ve clearly given you the real reasons of the agrarian

33:46

revolution, the political stability, and the glorious institutions of Britain? So for one look unlike you I won’t say that

33:53

there aren’t other things which are important. So I’m not saying there aren’t other things. Like I said I did a level history. I could can give you a

33:59

list of other things which are important but it is impossible to discount the how much that slavery meant and the fact

34:05

that Portugal and Spain don’t they do a they do develop. They don’t develop at the same pace. So if you’re going to compare it’s interesting now you don’t

34:10

want to compare compare Portugal and France’s economy to Africa and the Caribbean’s economy. You’d say there’s a massive difference. So yes, I’m not

34:17

saying look just slavery is the only reason why Britain became Britain had the largest empire in the world. Britain had naval supremacy. There’s lots of

34:23

reasons why Britain developed which but the point is you can’t discount slavery and the massive impact that it had and

34:28

you also can’t discount the wealth that very clearly is traceable and exists today from that and the poverty that is

34:34

very clearly and traceable today. And so reparation is simply saying look there’s a debt that was owed then which you

34:40

actually accept in your argument and was never paid hence it should be paid. I mean it’s like I said no good argument.

34:45

in agreement because I’m not discounting the contribution of slavery. What I’m saying is it’s not massive as you are

34:51

making out. You are saying that it was a massive involvement. It was a precursor cities exist. It was it was a

34:58

precondition. It was not a major contribution. It was as I said 3% of the national income akin to book to to

35:04

Harley and to barley and hops. That’s my point. It is not. And of course and you and the the people that I’ve seen you

35:10

quote before, Beckles and so forth, they predicate the entire thing on the value of the slave trade and on the value of

35:16

of sugar as being essential. And I’m saying that those are those are Marxist interpretations and later historians

35:23

David Elton, Stanley Eggerton have all have all disproved it. We at the risk of losing the entire

35:28

audience with our descent into academia, interesting as it is from both of you and I really appreciate it. But just

35:34

coming back to sort of the the more practical level uh one question I always had and this is a genuine question right

35:40

so if I’m totally wrong please correct me but as far as I understand

Should History Be Judged by Today’s Morals?

35:46

it was so dangerous for European purchases of slaves in Africa to go

35:51

ashore that almost the entirety of the slaves who were bought in Africa were sold by

35:57

Africans and that’s always to those people who are aware of that which is actually not that many people

36:03

that’s always kind of to me well even if we were to pay like who who should be shouldn’t be the people who sold and

36:09

captured those slaves be paying reparations do do you see what I’m getting at no I don’t actually this is again a terrible terrible argument

36:15

I’m just I’m just genuinely asking because there were Jewish collaborators in the Holocaust does that mean that we should blame Jewish people like it’s

36:20

just a silly argument hold on hold on% if we’re going to say no we should go

36:26

but that’s that’s not a fair comparison if if the Holocaust had been conducted by the Jews that would a very different

36:33

conversation but slavery wasn’t conducted by Africans they made well they sold all the slaves so it was

36:38

they captured themselves people well no a again there’s a huge difference between slavery so called no it’s not no

36:44

no no I think it’s we have definition is really really important what Europe did was a new thing it was not yes it was

36:49

Seattle slavery slave tree they were involved in mining in agriculture in irrigation

36:55

they also plantations slavery they also had rights in you’re lying to the public though they

37:00

were they were they were the bilo the person who does the first call for prayer in the in the Quran is

37:08

an enslaved African they had rights you could become free and in African slavery in terms of what you’re talking about what was actually just said was African

37:14

you Africans had slave African slavery was much more like surfom where you were part of the family you had freedom at a certain time it’s actually much more

37:19

comparable to surfom than it is to shadow slavery shadow slavery is dehumanizing it is literally the taking away of every single right and it’s

37:26

quite likely that the people who sold who didn’t actually know what they were doing cuz remember African slavery doesn’t actually take is mostly on a

37:32

continent. They go far away. You’re ignoring all the slaves who died being kidnapped and transported to the

37:38

coast. The point here is of course there is there was huge there was huge rebellions. So yes, there were some

37:44

Africans 100% who were complicit who there were whole kingdoms that essentially grew out of the idea of we

37:51

trade enslaved people. But this was because of the conditions that were imposed. Right? I’m not it’s not I’m not

37:57

say they’re not blameless. You’re not hearing me say they’re blameless. But again the if you look at the calculations for reparations they are

38:03

based largely not on harm. They are based largely on paid labor and the welfare which is there.

38:09

So there’s nobody in Africa who benefited from today. Just so I understand. So your argument is is is actually the reparations are

38:15

owed because the slaves that were taken from Africa by European nations. They were used to produce things and

38:22

therefore their descendants are owed effectively a chunk of that wealth that was produced using their labor. That’s

38:28

your argument. And plus again and I want to stress here Africa Africa overall yes

38:33

you can find the minimum I mean there were very like in terms of the population of Africa how many were involved in trading people it that is a

38:38

minuscule number that is not that was that is a minuscule number. So the the actual impact of slavery in Africa was

38:44

to impoverish Africa. So I am saying that the basis of reparations claims are one the unpaid labor which is very very

38:50

simple this hundred years of paid labor two the wealth that was accumulated and the damage that was done economically

38:55

which is still there you can still see today which is why you don’t go to the Arab slave trade you don’t go to the few Africans who had where is

39:02

on that is that not a fair point if we could find some way I know it’s probably p the practicalities of this are

39:08

difficult admittedly but if we could find some way to go well look your great great great-grandfather wasn’t slave

39:13

taken from Africa used as a as a laborer, that labor produced x amount of wealth and we are now, you know, we’ve

39:21

developed this magical system to trace that back and to be able to give you x% of his labor. Would that not be a good

39:28

thing to do? No, not at all. Because you you’re talking about sums that are far smaller

39:33

than what you’re what you’re discussing here. Uh but also of course there is no you know don’t have such a rosy colored

39:40

picture of what it was like in Africa for slaves. You know, just just in the in the kingdom of Deomi, you had annual

39:45

sacrifices where you had up to 4,000 slaves murdered in human sacrifice rituals that were done there.

39:50

What about any not at all? You talk about the Islamics. No, but you’re trying to paint this picture that

39:56

somehow slavery there are different gradations of slavery. Uh in the Islamic slave trade, you had millions of of

40:01

young boys were captured. 60% of those millions of young boys died because they were castrated brutally without

40:07

anesthetic of course and died from that. this idea that somehow they were walking about drinking mint mint tulips or

40:13

whatever. Nobody said it. Yes, you did. Actually, I said it was different. I didn’t say it was good. To be clear what I said. I said it was

40:18

different. I realiz that that is what you said. But but if you’re going to create your formula, then who’s going to pay for

40:24

this? Out of a population of uh millions of people. There were only a few thousand slave owners. The majority of

40:30

British people in this country descend from people who lived lives of abject poverty akin to surfom. Why should their

40:36

tax money go to paying reparations? You know, over 16% of this country is now foreign born. Why should somebody from

40:42

who was born in Malaysia or Korea pay reparations? What about Jamaicans living here now? Why should they pay tax money

40:48

to people in Trinidad for for reparations? I mean, the the whole the whole idea is absurd. As I say, you

40:54

can’t have intergenerational trauma for eight generations. It’s simply absurd. You need to take responsibility. And of

41:00

course, look to the great success stories of Africa in the past. Look for example, you know, there are reasons for

41:05

Africa’s poverty right now and it’s co it’s it’s its corruption. It’s a failure to manage the economy well. The two

41:11

there are only two countries in Africa which are success stories that rank in the top tier of the human development

41:17

index. That’s Maitius and the Sey Shells. Why is that? Because they’ve got good government, good democracy. They

41:23

have institutions that are respected and well supported and they’ve allowed immigration into the country. So there

41:28

are lots of Indians in the economy who are helping the economy. Contrast that to what happened to South Africa.

41:33

Contrast that to happen what happened with Zimbabwe. So why is it in Africa with with the white minority rules in Africa?

41:38

With Zimbabwe. Look look at the economies as soon as you as soon as you turf out one group of Oh black people in Africa is a solution.

41:45

Black actual racist ideas coming out. Are you denying you

41:51

Africans Africa is the wise? What happened to Uganda after the Asian Indians of the Asian Uganda? What

41:57

happened to what happened to South Africa to South Africa in recent years? What’s happened to Zimbabwe? A South Africa again just be let’s not

42:04

lie. South Africa is not kicking people out. That’s not what’s happening at all. South Africa is actually still under the control of most of the same African.

42:11

Let’s not let’s not lie. The corruption I’m talking where does the corruption come from? I’m

42:16

sorry in the Congo and you talk about Africa for example. You know the life expectancy in Africa you said it is 60.

42:23

It doubled because of of the arrival of the Europeans in the country. Life expectancy for thousands of years had been 24 to 35 up to up to 18 up to the

42:31

1850s 1860s. It was the same in 1850 as in 1550 as in 1450 since the since

42:38

Europeans arrived because of medicine, vaccinations, antibiotics, clean water,

42:43

sanitation, life expectancy doubled and the Caribbean was a beneficiary of far more of that. Life expectancy in the

42:49

Caribbean is up to 15 years longer than in West Africa. The GDP is over 10 times

42:54

higher. That’s because of the inheritance that they got from the British Empire. But that is I mean can I just be really

Who Speaks for the Descendants of Slaves?

43:01

really clear on this? I think one of the things which gets lost also with reparation for slavery campaigns is the

43:06

good ones are not just about slavery. It actually says so America for example has a whole slavery camp reparations

43:11

campaign which recognizes slavery recognizes Jim Crow recognizes everything else. As I said the knife wasn’t pulled out. So when you’re

43:17

looking at someone like Africa slavery happens then colonialism happens. So col Africa is literally underdeveloped by

43:23

Europe. So, anything you say about whether life was bad, it was done. It was underdeveloped. No, hold on. No, but I want to let you

43:31

talk for a long time. This just a definition I’ I’d love to get from you because it’s a word we hear a lot now. Colonialism. What does that mean? What

43:38

is colonialism? So, colonialism is when one country or entity controls another one for its own

43:43

benefit. And so, Jamaica is a colony from of Britain from what 1655.

43:48

Everything everything that happens in Jamaica is you could still argue today because we now have neoc colonialism but

43:53

colonialism everything happens in Jamaica everything happens in Nigeria when it’s colonized it is to the benefit of Britain and so therefore places are

44:00

underdeveloped so the truth is we have no idea what would happen if Europe hadn’t come into Africa did the slave

44:05

trade the colonism we have no idea what happened is under

44:11

Ethiopia and we have Liberia Ethiopia and Liberia were never colonized they were independent they were independent

44:18

They were independent nations. And I’m sorry, but Ethiopia and Liberia still remain in the lowest tier of developed

44:24

countries in Africa. It’s my it’s my mistake. I shouldn’t have brought Rafe in. I apologize. You carry on. Liberia is actually made up by America.

44:30

So, let’s not pretend that Liberia has it long history. Ethiopia is the perfect example of being a country surrounded by

44:36

other colonial countries. So, Ethiopia may well not have been may well have been independent, but a country can’t by itself develop if it’s surrounded by

44:43

it’s basically a colony. And actually Ethiopia is of the in terms of what we call neoc colonialism there which is

44:48

after formal colonism ends. Yes you have governments but they are puppet governments in fact many times installed

44:53

by the west and that’s where the corruption actually comes from not us from puppet governments and you cannot I mean that would be just a lie to pretend

45:00

that’s not the not the case. For example, in the Congo, Joseph Mabutu is literally installed by the CIA and

45:06

puppets and then literally destroys the country and is it comes to England, comes to England, comes to America,

45:11

flies around in private jets and steals billions upon billions upon billions with the consent of both the USA and the

45:16

United Kingdom and Europe etc. So the neoc colonialism is when is when we have that that it continues. So I’d argue actually Ethiopia is one of the worst

45:22

countries for neoc colonialism because it was surrounded by everywhere else. So the point is don’t just look at slavery as separate. Look at that history and

45:29

tell me anywhere on this line from slavery to colonialism to neoclolonism or racism where has this debt that you

45:35

say and acknowledge should have been paid where has it been paid? And not only has it not been paid, more things have been piled onto it. Third world

45:41

debt, for example, piled onto it. All of these things piled onto it. So we actually have a position where it’s far

45:46

worse than just slavery. It’s slavery, colonalism, and where we are today because it just piles up, piles up,

45:52

piles up, piles up. And to pretend that it doesn’t, that’s what I call psychosis. the psychosis of whiteness.

45:57

There is you rosy view of the world where you can ignore what’s happened historically. Ignore the implications

46:02

which are very clear today. I know I’ve got a question for so I’m my argument is very clear. White supremacy is what

46:09

defines the global economy has done since this very clear argument. If you look at a map of um global inequality

46:15

today, GDP per capita, it will show you that the poorest part of the world is where black people live, so-called

46:20

subsaran Africa, the richest part of the world is where white people live, the west, and there’s a hierarchy in between. So, we literally have an

46:26

economy in the mode of white supremacy, which is why I how I understand the world. Tell me how that can be true

46:33

if it’s not. Before you do, can I just jump in? Please tell me. Can I just explore this thing because

46:39

you say the psychosis of why? Look, I I think you’ve made some interesting points about, you know, slavery and

46:46

what’s owed. And, you know, I actually said to you before we started that I think there’s some really strong arguments on that point that I I I agree

46:52

with to some extent. When you start talking about whiteness, are you not including a hell of a lot of people who

46:58

really had nothing to do with any of this? Like my ancestors are Russian. That’s where I’m from. I happen to live

47:04

in this country, but when you say psych psychosis of whiteness, now I’m part of this somehow. Do you see what I’m saying? I I want to

47:10

is it not a little bit is a little bit not too broad. If you’re someone who values free

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48:24

and see what you’ve been missing. And now back to the show. Whiteness is about idea, not people. So

48:31

it’s not really about people. So I’m not I didn’t say psychosis about people. I said whiteness whiteness is a way of

48:36

viewing the world which is completely irrational, deluded and distorted and leads to arguments like on the other side of the table which all black people

48:43

Asian people are just as likely to to engage as anybody else. It’s not about you individually. Wait, so whiteness has nothing to do

48:49

with skin color. Well, it’s white sup whiteness comes from a system of white supremacy. As I said, the world today is is it can you

48:55

explain why the poorest part of the world is black and the richest part of the world is white and there’s a hierarchy in between that isn’t about

49:00

race, isn’t about colonialism? May maybe right on the poorest part of the world was African long before Europeans arrived.

49:06

How do you explain that? Africa was ahead of Europe. Africa was ahead subsahar and look you had in the

49:12

in the middle ages you had the Mali Empire and you know and Timbuktu and all of that ahead of you. Yeah. But they

49:17

didn’t develop beyond that. Why is that? Why was slavery? No, I’m sorry. For heaven’s sake, we’re

49:23

talking about West African slavery that didn’t go into central Africa. Let him answer now. Yeah. The truth.

49:30

Well, I’m sorry. And this is the key point, right? Africa is thousands of years old. Uh Europeans didn’t arrive

49:36

there in to settle and colonize until the the scramble for Africa was when it really took took place in 1885. As late

49:43

as 1841, you had a few trading outposts on the coast. Yes, there was a slave trade, but we’re talking about when Brit

49:49

when Europeans went inland because people inland in Africa didn’t have any knowledge or experience of what was

49:55

happening on the on the coast and the slave markets, right? Uh, Africa is huge. They got their slaves from West

50:01

Africa. They weren’t getting their their slaves from from from from Central Africa. Congo. Where’s Congo? I’m talking about the the 1600s and the

50:08

16 Come on. I am giving you plenty of time. I know you I know you’re both passionate and I love it and it’s great and just Ray for

Is Reparations Policy Realistic?

50:15

one sec. I’m glad you’re h we’re having this debate. I think it’s great. I wanted to be informative for the audience as well. So, it’s better if you

50:21

don’t talk over each other. You will get all the time you need both of you. All right. In 1871 only 10% of Europe of

50:28

Africa had been colonized. So why in 1871 Africa had thousands of years. Why

50:33

was there no equivalent of the cities of this is a land mass larger than Europe, larger than India and China combined?

50:40

Why wasn’t there the economic development? Why was life expectancy still as it was? Why didn’t you have any of the scientific advancement elsewhere?

50:47

Africa had been left to its own devices. it didn’t come up with that. The huge leap forwards in for Africa in terms of

50:52

life expectancy, in terms of the economy, in terms of science and medicine happened when the Europeans

50:57

were there. And the Europeans were not there for very long. I think people often think that this is centuries of involvement in Africa. We’re talking

51:03

about a period of around 150 years ago was when colonization started. And for

51:08

most countries, colonization was less than a century. You know, it was from the 1880s up to the 1950s or 1970s. Such

51:15

such a short period of time. But during that period what growth and development happened in in in Africa for example.

51:21

Now this is really going to annoy India but there nothing has done more to lift the world out of poverty than capitalism

51:27

and colonialism. Those have been the two greatest forces for life expectancy for living standards. As Steven Pinker from

51:33

Harvard University has said that the life in pre-state societies was

51:38

incalculably more brutal and harsh than life today. I mean you, you know, we’re talking about cannibalism, awful rituals

51:45

taking place, every you and you needed structured societies to achieve that. That’s been achieved. If you look at the

51:51

successful states that achieve that, they were ones that usually had a British imperial heritage. So wherever

51:56

you go in the world of all the empires, those that had a British imperial heritage came out the best of the whole situation. And you talk about Jamaica,

52:03

for example, Jamaicans disagree with you. And you know, a few years ago, there was a poll of Jamaicans, 60% of

52:08

Jamaicans said that they wish the British had never left. They said British rule was far better. It was far

52:13

less corrupt. Things worked better. And they would prefer the British to be in power. And if you look, and you were

52:18

asking about, you said I can’t say any examples. If you look at the independent countries in the Caribbean, yes, a lot

52:24

of them aren’t doing very well economically. The the countries in the in the Caribbean that are doing very well are those which are dependencies of

52:30

France, of Britain, and of the United States. Puerto Rico, Guadaloop, Martineique, around the same size as

52:36

Puerto Rico as as Barbados. Much more profitable. Why? Because they haven’t

52:41

been uh victims of the corruption and of the the incompetent leadership, the the

52:47

substandard and unserious politicians that you have there who are often beating the drum and looking for handouts rather than dealing with the

52:53

country’s problems as they should be dealt with. So you go all the time you want. I literally just explained this which is

52:58

why this is why like psychosis because you give you give the argument and then just come on. You got to stop throwing in and just make the argument. I want to be

53:05

clear. It’s not an insult. It’s not an insult. I tell you our audience is an insult. very nuanced and they’re open to be

53:11

persuaded, but you’ve got to make the argument. But I want to stress this is part of the argument cuz part of what I’m trying to tell you is it doesn’t matter what we

53:17

say and we talk about debate and you want to come to a it’s not going to happen, right? Because we’re just we’re talking you two are never going to agree that

53:24

that’s why you’re here. But but you but hold on hold on you’re coming at this from two very different perspectives.

53:30

But the reason I brought you together is not cuz I thought you and Rafe would sit down around the table and eventually agree. That’s never going to happen. The

53:37

reason I brought you together is there’s a million and a half people watching potentially, right? And a lot of them

53:43

haven’t made their mind up about this issue at all. They don’t know as I don’t know what they think. So, you have an

53:50

opportunity to persuade them. So, the reason I say the word insult, maybe you don’t mean it that way, but if you say

53:55

to the person watching this, well, you’ve got psychosis, it’s not it’s not that persuasive. Do you know what I

54:01

mean? And I I’m just making it plain. Like, I don’t know how else to tell you, but to make it plain. Persuade me. Like, explain it to me. But

54:06

look as I the idea that so Ra starts up with his point which I already mentioned

54:11

right sla colonalism the reason that Europe doesn’t colonize Africa because it can’t not because it doesn’t want to

54:17

it’s not possible it doesn’t have the capability but his argument is Africa was poor before the Europeans got

54:22

this is where it’s not simply not true when Europe when Europe come when Europe turns to Africa Africa is ahead there

54:29

are more books in Timbuktu one library in Timbuktu than there are in the whole of Europe this is one of the biggest lies of history Europe Africa is not

54:35

behind Europe can’t actually colonize Africa because it doesn’t have the capability to do it. It’s not possible.

54:40

Right. Is that just one example or are you saying the whole continent is more developed? I mean, not every part of the continent,

54:45

but if you’re going to say Africa as a whole is more than we’re quite ignorant about African history, I would say. So, can you tell us more about that?

54:51

Generally, you’re talking about the Mali Empire talking about technologically in terms of reading is ahead. There’s no

54:57

doubt. Technologically, technologically is when the So, the Mo the Moors go into the Moors go into

55:03

Europe from from North Africa. Yeah. And bring in things like bring in many things, toilet paper, bring in things

55:09

like hygiene, bring in things like dinner plates, bring you can talk there’s and you know this is true, right? I’m not making this up. There’s a

55:15

whole influence on European culture from the Moors. When the Moors are defeated in 1491, 1492 that opens up European

55:21

coming to Africa, but Africa as a whole is just not they’re not able to come. Are the Mo I I’m not I’m not a

55:26

historian, so I don’t know. So again, educate me. Are the Mo North Africans or are they coming from subsaharan Africa?

55:32

This is North Africa. This is the North African North African. So you also have Mali you have this you mentioned the

55:38

empire of Mali you have Zimbabwe has development overall the mo are part of the Islamic world

55:44

right the north Africans part they also included Africa as well right we agree on this it’s not just subsaharan Africa because you Africa’s

55:51

too big trade so what I think what people hear or at least what I hear I

55:56

may be wrong when you say Africa was more advanced I’m trying to think I mean

56:01

I’m not just talking about the mos the mos are one part so let’s say is the Mo Malian Empire, Zimbabwe, the Yoraba,

56:09

there’s many there’s you can go through there. The continent is not like some backwards. There’s no we’re not doing anything on. So when you say the more advanced, you

56:15

talked about, you know, the Moors brought certain things which by the way like a lot of people don’t know. I actually studied Islamic history as

56:21

university. So I know a lot of the things that that they brought and preserved sometimes from the ancient

56:26

world etc. Well, in terms of the subsaharan Africa, what would you say were their key scientific uh

56:32

developments and and other things that we would say, well, that was more advanced than the Europeans at that time? Well, it’s actually interesting that

56:38

when there’s actually reports that when Columbus was sailing to America, there were Africans sailing back, not Moors,

56:45

West African. There’s actually a lot of evidence that the West Africans made it to Americas long before, thousand years

56:50

before the old mech heads. There was a person who did research I can’t I can’t remember name Age of Empire is a book where I’ve did the research on this but

56:56

she she actually found that there were drugs in some of the West African art um sorry there were drugs in the Latin

57:03

American tombs which came from West Africa thousand thousand years ago. So this is simply

57:08

so they had sailing technology they could sail they had the wheel they could do there was there was technology there was iron etc. This remember we’re

57:15

in the dark ages in Europe like Europe isn’t isn’t particularly advanced at all at this point. So the reason why Rafe is

57:20

correct 40 like Europe goes to Africa really 1492 15th century 16th century Europe the reason they’re not colonizing

57:26

isn’t because they don’t want to colonize cuz they can’t you mentioned it earlier they who why was it that it was

57:32

Africans who had who did the actual capture because Europeans couldn’t get him I thought that’s disease it was a

57:38

disease just disease it wasn’t just it was revolt it was rebellion it was the fact that they had to they had the so

57:43

they had this disease does not explain why you have these massive castles where heavily fortified and even they like

57:49

Almina Castle in Ghana what’s now Ghana they even abandon those and have to go at some point they start just having

57:54

boats where they the boats are offshore because there’s so much resistance they just start putting people on the boats so the re there’s a reason why you’re

58:01

they didn’t need they didn’t need to the slave markets were there on this I’m not making this up new age I said I did the

58:06

research so let me let me let me let me let me explain so slavery once Europeans started coming

58:12

into enslaved and a big part of this whole thing as well when we say Africans that is a European idea at the time. At

58:18

the time, Africans did not see themselves as Africans. That was not the case. There was different ethnicities. And what Europe did very well was they

58:24

played off these different ethnicities against each other. So it wasn’t the case that the Euroba was selling the Euraba. The Euraba might have a war with

58:30

the Igbo and then when they captured the Igbo, they sell them. So the idea that Africans selling other Africans again is not really true. This is different.

58:36

Hold on. Hold on. That’s what this one group of Africans selling out. We now think of Africans and they now

58:41

think of Africans certainly. the time they if there were if there was a we are all African identity slavery probably doesn’t happen because again Europe’s

58:47

not powerful enough so what happens is slavery starts it becomes new it starts to it slowly starts to become the

58:52

dominant it is the dominant force on the African continent and yes the enslaved are taken from the interior there are marches Congo is one of the main places

59:00

where enslaved gold from to Brazil that’s firmly in the middle so the whole continent starts to change which is why

59:05

you have the rise of the Ashanti the dami you mentioned the the the groups that say actually no we will do this

59:10

we’ll do the trading on behalf of will work they have and they have the English flag some of these you’re saying demand creates supply

59:16

yes they they because it was lucrative right and so there were people who took advantage and this completely and if you

59:21

look at all of the um the ethnic groups who become dominant those are the ones that enslaving and they’re doing it often times the English flag literally

59:28

for English flag enslaving people so there’s a whole period from 15 say let’s say 1500 up to colonization where Africa

59:34

is being drained of resources slavery is destroying things people are moving away from they’re trying to get away from the coast the whole economy he gets shaped

59:41

completely differently shaped. So we have no idea what happens because slavery becomes a dominant thing on the continent which is why there’s no

59:46

development. Slavery literally stops African development to the point at which then in the 19th century places

59:52

like Nigeria are able to they can be colonized and and again just this the idea that places with British heritage

59:58

are the ones who do the best. Nigeria is essentially a failed state. Explain that because Nigeria had British the British

1:00:04

British British. It’s still very British education system and it’s one of the is essentially a fail state today. It’s certainly not the case that having

1:00:10

British heritage most regions of the world places with the British heritage are better. South Africa was the golden

1:00:16

golden jewel in Africa. Kenya Kenya was the great I know is deeply. I’m sorry. I’m talking about when

1:00:22

independence came not talking about what’s happened. You can’t blame us now for the bad corruption and bad

1:00:27

government of those places. But if you compare African states that were British to those that were French or else but let’s get back to your point. Look, I’ve

1:00:33

already said and you said that the the Mali Empire, the Songai Empire were great, but don’t make it out as if you know there was the great Wakanda in

1:00:40

Africa at this time. I’m sorry. These are few and far between places. The history of

1:00:45

and the reason for their decline was because of internal issues that they had. They were waring with each other.

1:00:50

They were incompetently led. That’s why you had the collapse of Timbuktu and and and and of the Mali Emperor, for

1:00:56

example. And why was it? I mean, you know, the fact is Africa was not developed. Why did Africa not have

1:01:01

something equivalent to the enlightenment that we saw and to the to the reformation that we saw in the 13th

1:01:07

to the 17th century in Italy and Europe? The great cultural awakening of the of the reformation. Why didn’t it have an

1:01:13

equivalent to the Gupta Empire in India? We saw we saw a great a great flourishing of arts and culture and

1:01:19

science. Why was there no equivalent to the Tang dynasty in China, the great period there? This was a time when there

1:01:24

was no European entry into Africa. This was a time when Africa was on its own

1:01:30

able to do whatever it wanted to. It had the opportunity to develop its own culture. You know, 80% of African

1:01:35

languages don’t have a written alphabet. It’s very difficult therefore to create a civilized society when you don’t have

1:01:41

those necessary precursors for civilizations. Those are the things of course which you don’t want to address.

1:01:46

And you know it’s it’s very it’s very easy to just suggest that Africa was somehow more more more developed. I’m

1:01:51

sorry. The point was look well he did say the history of I said he was saying was born in Europe

1:01:58

Asia, India, China, the Middle East were much more advanced in Europe in the dark ages and elsewhere. Absolutely. What

1:02:03

happened the great genius of the west is what happened from the 1600s onwards when we adopted the scientific method

1:02:09

and when as I said the western mind fundamentally views the world differently for example you know outside

1:02:15

of the west outside of the west we’re they’re much better at facial recognition because they use both hemispheres of the brain the western

1:02:21

mind only uses the right hemisphere for facial recognition there are very fundamentally different ways in which these things happen

1:02:27

eugenics noted in places say not the west let’s place

1:02:33

with white cuz that’s what you actually mean. Isn’t he real? Why do function differently? Who lives in western educated industrialized rich and

1:02:40

democratic societies like these were born in they were these were born in Europe but they’ve now been processed in

1:02:46

in China in Japan in other industrialized parts of the world. Origin of it was white correct. Oh, you’re very happy to celebrate the

1:02:52

African origins of things. Somehow Europe can’t celebrate or acknowledge any of its own achievements and accomplishments.

1:02:58

I was you can celebrate the achievements but not pretend the western mind is different. The white mind is different. There’s a clearly racist idea.

1:03:03

You clearly haven’t done any but

How Different Groups Think Differently

1:03:08

loads of eugenic evidence that tells you there’s nothing to do with eugenics.

1:03:13

100%. There are different groups of white people, right? The the only reason I’m jumping in is because you’re talking about something that I personally can

1:03:20

can weigh in on. So I would say having come from Eastern Europe, there’s a massive difference between the way

1:03:26

Eastern Europeans think and the way Western Europeans think or the way Americans think. in fact is actually as

1:03:32

I’ve now discovered I used to think like Americans and British people basically the same speak the same language as you you’ve just come back from America you

1:03:39

know that’s not true right like they think about things very differently so if cultures can be different within you

1:03:45

know you’re focused on ethnicity okay let’s just take that white people can have different cultures

1:03:51

wouldn’t it be therefore very logical to say people in western Europe will have a different way of thinking about things

1:03:57

than people in another continent whether that’s in China or in Africa isn’t A fair point. Why do you say that’s eugenics? It seems like excessive to me.

1:04:04

You can certainly make the case that there different there’s different cultural outlooks. Of course, African beliefs tend to have completely different views about death, etc. But

1:04:11

that is a different state that the western mind is different. Our minds are the same. Our cultures may be different, but our minds are not different. And

1:04:17

actually, I really want to fundamentally when you start to put it the whole thing of eugenics cranometry there’s a

1:04:23

different kind of site. You can measure the head. You can say which is the right brain. He didn’t say this is not biological. Why? So why is it the so

1:04:31

please explain explain why we pro what you’re saying this is your not me the western mind has different hemisphere

1:04:38

when explain why spatial awareness visual visual reasoning these are all noticeable

1:04:44

differences so for example uh right corners we we are less good at looking

1:04:49

at round corners than Africans because they don’t have the right angle so if you look in places now that have were

1:04:55

built when you grow up in in in houses which are square the eye naturally sees right angles when they see a flat

1:05:02

surface. They don’t see that. That’s because of how we developed and grow up. This is about cultural anthropology.

1:05:07

It’s not about biology. This is about the situ the situation and the dynamics. I’m sorry. dressed up dressing up eugenics

1:05:15

and as the west developed and as you had colonialism and you exported it the the western concepts around the world you

1:05:21

saw the development of these same attributes elsewhere which is why of course you had in Japan and China there

1:05:26

are very few differences now with the originally European mind which is why it’s called it’s called the western mind this is not something that’s

1:05:32

controversial this is accepted by behavioral psychologists and cultural psychologists and anthrop and

1:05:37

anthropologists it’s very well known this is the science I have a degree in psychology So I can tell you they did not

1:05:43

actually there’s a lot of evidence but the point is it was that moment and this all goes back to the church’s ban on

1:05:50

cousin marriage a thousand years ago this is where it all develops from the Catholic church it was then called the western church ban marriage between

1:05:56

certain degrees of consanguinity that got rid of the of the kinship clans which are so which were prevalent all

1:06:02

around the world to this day the majority of cultures in the world have large kinshipbased families with about

1:06:07

40 50 members whether you’re a first second third fourth cousin you’re treated equally as brothers and sisters.

1:06:13

That was done away within Europe. And so suddenly you had the birth of the nuclear family and still minority family

1:06:19

nuclear families are a small minority of global families. And what you had then was you had family units that had to

1:06:24

rely on other people for for for support. You got the birth of social trust. Social trust does not did not

1:06:30

exist outside of the west at this time to anywhere near the same degree. When you had social trust, of course, you then were able to enter into contracts

1:06:37

and you began to have rival organizations to families developing. You had uh charter towns, towns that you

1:06:43

would sign an oath to help develop. You had universities, you had guilds, you had confraternities. These were uniquely

1:06:49

European things that began to develop in the last thousand years. And then when you had these independent organizations,

1:06:55

you then began to have cross-pollination of ideas. They would talk and discuss. They would they would have the birth of

1:07:01

competition. And that’s what led to innovation and social trust and competition are fundamental to

1:07:06

innovation. And it’s at this point that you see the development of a very different worldview, a very different outlook. And you can see it in all sorts

1:07:14

of ways. So for example, if you look if you look at ways that we identify ourselves to for for the western pe for

1:07:21

western people and that includes now modern places in Asia, if I said Constantine, who are you? You’d say I’m

1:07:26

a very very uh handsome uh stand-up comedian. you’re trying to get on my

1:07:31

side. I, you know, I’ve got snazzy jackets and, you know, I collect milk bottle tops or whatever, right? But if you are

1:07:38

to ask somebody in a in a tribe in the in in rural Africa, they would say, well, I’m X. I’m the son of Y. I’m the

1:07:44

brother of so and so. I’m the father and so and so. It’s family and kinship that defines who you are as opposed to what

1:07:50

happens in the west. Because in the west, you had the birth of individualism. And that was the key difference. The notion of the individual

1:07:56

is a western primarily anglopheric concept which also Protestant helped to create. And it was that notion of the

1:08:02

individual and self-improvement and the reliance on on other people that you had innovation in individualism and

1:08:08

competition that led to the uniqueness of the western mind which wasn’t replicated anywhere else till you had an

1:08:14

ex exporting of colonialism. See the reason I’m getting fr I don’t even know now I’m starting to be like this is actually dangerous like these

1:08:21

are a set of dangerous ideas. So if you think about what justifies slavery in the first place first you had there was a religious justification it was very

1:08:28

much the pope Christian if you’re not Christian you’re a heathen you can do what you like right after that it becomes the if you like the

1:08:34

enlightenment definition the scientific definition actually we’re just not human beings right we’re just actually like more like I’m more like a ape than I am

1:08:41

a human therefore you can do x y z again I would point out this enlightenment we’re so proud of was actually brought

1:08:46

in the idea that I’m not a human being so maybe there’s some very bad ideas in the enlightenment anyway it becomes that

1:08:51

scientific ific justification. That’s where you get phronology, eugenics, which I’m saying why this is eugenic idea. What happens after the second

1:08:58

world war is eugenics becomes a bad thing. We can’t do eugenics no more. What do we do? We do cultural racism. So

1:09:03

you’re explaining the world because you’re saying that the west essentially has a better culture and Africa has a backwards culture. And this is why

1:09:09

Africa’s poor. That is a clear that is a you go from church, you go church,

1:09:14

science culture. It’s the same line. So when I’m saying it’s eugenics, it’s just eugenics dressed up in something else

1:09:19

which you can do with some fancy tests and which are not and I promise you these things are not widely accepted in

1:09:24

psychology. I have a degree in psychology. I know it’s literature. It is deeply controversial and it you and I

1:09:30

would ask your audience to think which look this is a comforting idea to think that the poverty that we have a world

1:09:36

that kills a child every 10 seconds because they haven’t got access to food and water most of those children probably all of those children are black

1:09:42

and brown. Racial capitalism. It’s comforting to think it’s because we have this great culture. Isn’t it wonderful? Etc., etc. But I’m giving you the actual

1:09:48

alternative reality to this. There is a reason why Africa’s development stops when slavery starts. Because slavery

1:09:54

stops the development. There is a reason why under colonialism where where the

1:09:59

whole economy is dictated to and to draw out resources. So when African countries get independence, a book I would

1:10:04

recommend everybody read is um h Africa Mushi bywami and Krummer, the first president of Ghana. who’s Ghana is

1:10:12

actually one of the first countries 1960 to get independence says I now I run this country but there’s no hospitals

1:10:17

there’s no schools there’s no roads there’s no factories in fact the whole of this economy is built are taking all of our resources and process them in

1:10:23

Europe and selling them back to us that is still the case in somewhere like Ghana where chocolate companies take the resources produce it outside etc etc so

1:10:30

when you have in this independence happens the countries they can’t how could a country that has no hospitals no roads no factories ever succeed it can’t

1:10:37

so what does it do it falls into poverty gets these loans has more poverty etc etc. On top of that, one of the key

1:10:43

features of neoc colonialism is to install public governments places like Congo, even in Niger, even in in

1:10:48

Krummer’s attitude, etc. And so when you’re looking at African countries can’t succeed, of course they couldn’t

1:10:53

succeed. There’s no possible way that could they could have succeeded, which is why they’re still poor today. And again, reparations is not just about

1:10:59

slavery. It’s about that whole history. So I’m telling you the history the reason that you have this inequality

1:11:04

today is very clearly largely down to Europe exploiting the west exploiting the underdeveloped world and continuing

1:11:10

to do so and you have a fairy tale and and frankly racist idea over there both

1:11:15

of you pause both of you is it possible that there’s some truth in what you’re both saying because like I think it’s

1:11:22

undeniable that western slavery and colonialism would have had a

1:11:27

negative impact on Africa but that doesn’t mean that the cultures weren’t necessarily the same. So, could it be

1:11:32

that you’re both right? I mean, Ra, surely you wouldn’t deny that colonialism and slavery was bad for

1:11:37

Africa, would you? Yeah. Well, for people alive at the time, it was bad. Absolutely. That’s my

1:11:42

point. Slavery and colonialism were horrendous for people at the time, but now generation on, I’m sorry, the

1:11:48

benefits of colonialism have have helped to lift the world out of poverty, have have increased life, have doubled life

1:11:54

expectancy. Same thing in Australia. life expectancy of aboriges was 40 years for thousand thousands of years. Now

1:12:01

it’s almost doubled. Right? So those are the the advantages. So yes, slavery was was horrendous for for slaves. But for

1:12:07

the descendants of slaves today living in Britain and the Caribbean, slavery, they’re not victims of slavery. They’ve actually benefited from the terrible

1:12:13

hardship that their ancestors went through. But do you not think being occupied,

1:12:19

having a foreign government that sought to use your country exclusively for its own benefit, which it did? I’m not

1:12:25

saying they didn’t do certain things. I’m sure they brought schools in and whatever. But nonetheless, they did that so they had a more educated population

1:12:32

to do the things that they needed done, right? Don’t you think that, you know, 100 years of that would leave a legacy

1:12:39

that was detrimental? Detriment in what way? Yes. Look, the

1:12:44

point was pre the pre-state societies were far more brutal. So yes, I’m not saying that these were wonderful places

1:12:51

necessary to live, but you know, racism was abhorentt at that time. Look, Britain is now the world’s third least racist country. But back in the 19th

1:12:57

century, of course, everyone did believe in racial hierarchies. Britain was very racist in the start of the 20th century

1:13:02

as well. No one is denying that. No one is denying the atrocities. My father was born in Kenya along with most all all

1:13:08

his family. What happened to the m the Malma was was terrible and everything else. The and the cuyu and so forth. But

1:13:14

the point was terrible compared to what the conditions that were there before when you had terrible violence of course

1:13:21

between rival tribes. You had warfare, you had malnutrition, you had poor

1:13:26

water, you had disease, people’s life expecties were so short. You compare that to what happened afterwards.

1:13:32

Clearly a huge improvement with the benefit of of industrialization and development. Um, and of course once

1:13:39

independence came, they were given an inheritance. They had the necessary conditions to thrive. I mean, it’s not

1:13:45

true. In the 1950s and60s was, for example, in the Caribbean, that was a key era for the development of of the

1:13:50

Caribbean. You know, in in Barbados, there’s there’s only one main hospital that was built by the British, one main

1:13:56

university that was built by the British. Things haven’t developed beyond that in Barbados because, of course,

1:14:01

there’s been economic mismanagement and corruption. And as I’ve said to you before, the countries on the in the Caribbean that are still crown

1:14:07

dependencies are the ones that are thriving. 60% of Jamaicans understand that and they would prefer Britain never

1:14:13

to have left. Specifically, let me answer that specifically. As I said, this is what

1:14:18

this is what we call neoc colonialism. So when Jamaica becomes independent and actually Jamaica the reason Jamaica

1:14:24

becomes independent is to stop Jamaicans migrating to Britain. That is why they made Jamaica independent not because some great great moral thing is they

1:14:30

want to stop people coming and it largely works. But after Jamaica becomes independent is this is the problem with independence. It’s independence in

1:14:36

theory but the economics of Jamaica stay the same. So the same people who owned everything in Jamaica still own it now. So all the money is still being taken

1:14:42

out, still being withdrawn, which is why obviously it can’t succeed. Jamaica’s economy is really collapsing and hasn’t and doesn’t really show any signs of

1:14:49

getting much better and so yes if you ask your average Jamaican was it better under the British they might go yeah it

1:14:54

was it was a bit better but that’s because they’re presented with this neocloners which is even worse but the

1:14:59

cause of it is still the same you have to address it so for example no in Jamaica apparent and I know Jamaica work well I’m from Jamaica tourism is the

1:15:06

main industry right 70% of the money from tourism goes straight out there’s a the north shore

1:15:11

where my family live in Jamaica most of it literally there’s like no public beaches or like little slithe beaches because most of it’s owned by foreign

1:15:17

companies. So the thing that’s supposed to help us doesn’t help us. This drains the money straight out. That’s the problem with something like Jamaica.

1:15:22

It’s not actually independent. It’s theoretically independent but economically Jamaica’s economy is still completely being rinsed by the west and

1:15:28

not just now it’s not just actually Europe or China. India’s getting involved etc etc. So Jamaica’s economy

1:15:33

can’t work. And so the people there might say oh yeah we we want it was better then that that’s not proof

1:15:40

that the Jamaican government has no agency in any of this. It’s the same No, not back in.

1:15:46

But this is the problem here that you have. That’s why people preferred things when they were run by by the British. You know, in Barbados, the auditor

1:15:51

general in Barbados has said that he can’t actually get proper accounts for

1:15:56

stateowned industries and and enterprises. Can you imagine that the auditor general cannot get accounts on

1:16:02

state industries in in Barbados? That’s the level of corruption and dysfunction that is created by having people in

1:16:08

power who simply don’t deserve to be there. And you can’t keep blaming everything on what happened post independence. It’s now been 50, 60, 70

1:16:16

years of independence. That’s long. That’s long enough to sort your own answer this question because the problem the problem that EU stated what was one

1:16:22

of the key things that Britain needed was financial stability and the former colonies simply don’t have it because they can’t have it because no Britain

1:16:28

did not leave the colonies in in a in a state where they could govern. They did not. They did not. This is that’s effectually untrue. They left the

1:16:34

colonies in states with with roads that went to the airport with one maybe one hospital, maybe a couple of schools. They did not leave them in places where

1:16:40

they could succeed. which is why most of the former colonies almost all of them fall into what we call third world debt IMF etc etc which is just a new form of

1:16:47

colonialism that’s the truth that’s that’s fundamentally the truth no country did more to prepare its colonies

1:16:52

for for independence than Britain did and up to after up to 2009 you had

1:16:58

Britain in the civil service was present military structures parliament uh courts

1:17:04

judiciary rule of law I’m talking about infrastructure hospitals no they didn’t cuz the evidence is clear on this

1:17:10

of course You look at the number of schools and well I mean for example even in after emancipation. So after after

1:17:15

after slavery was abolished in 1833 enforced in 1844 for the next 10 years

1:17:21

from 1835 to 1844 with no obligation Britain gave grants to the Caribbean for

1:17:27

schools for churches and for hospitals and so forth as some equivalent to a billion pounds today. Right.

1:17:32

Sorry can we say no obligation? This is again a massive problem we think about Britain. The Jamaica was a colony of

1:17:37

Britain. It had an obligation. When my family, when my dad came from in 1960 to here, he came with a passport. Wait a

1:17:43

second. No, no. They came with a passport that said Jamaica. It had every obligation because he owned the place. The idea was I think I think you I think

1:17:51

what Ray is saying is the money was given and there was no requirement to repay or to do anything.

1:17:57

No, no, no. My point is it was part of the nation. So, of course, it was there’s no difference between J between Britain funding education in Jamaica and

1:18:04

Britain funding education in Birmingham. It’s part of benefits because it’s a member of the Commonwealth.

1:18:09

Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and the UK given an an inordinate amount of its foreign aid to former British colonies

1:18:15

in the Commonwealth. Right? So, you know, as I said, 2 billion up to 2009 currently is 430 million pounds of

1:18:20

British money is earmarked for development there. And that’s because, of course, of the ties of the right,

1:18:26

we’re back in nerd territory. I want to wrap it up a little bit with uh but kind can I ask you one thing uh before we

The Psychology Of Whiteness

1:18:32

wrap up because you you talked a lot about this kind of psychology of whiteness and whatever. Do you think there was something very particular

1:18:40

about Western Europeans that made them do the slave trade that made them behave

1:18:45

in the ways that they did? That’s a good question. Um I mean talk about different minds. Yeah. Maybe maybe

1:18:52

they’re different. Do you have a happy different mind? I would not say

1:18:58

different. No, but but I’m asking you why do you think it happened that way? Because I guess the argument that I’m thinking

1:19:03

about is I mean I personally I have to say I don’t know enough about it to really make a judgment but I’m surprised

1:19:09

to hear you say Africa was more developed. I’d always assumed that the reason the Europeans did what they did

1:19:15

probably wasn’t because they had some different special mind in that way. But actually it was because they just had

1:19:20

the technology they were more powerful. They were wealthier so they could do this in a way that actually everyone

1:19:26

would have done if they were in a position to. So, I guess what I’m getting at is would Africans have colonized Western Europe if the if the

1:19:33

shoe was on the other foot or do you think there’s something special about white Europeans that made them behave in

1:19:39

that way? This is so I’m so tempted to give a different answer to this question, but I’m really not. I’m going to I’m going to play nice. Okay.

1:19:44

I think that when you when you look at it, it this is why the this is why the

1:19:49

West is when I say the West, when I say the West, it really does mean the going to the West. Europe going to the West and finding the Americas. The Americas

1:19:55

is such an it unlocks so many things. It’s not a coincidence that America is the richest part of the world. It’s it’s

1:20:01

it’s like that’s the key that unlocks everything else. Okay. And I think you have to be honest

1:20:06

and say who’s who’s the ambassador to the the f the first the guy Columbus Christopher Columbus who goes over there is one of the most violent insidious

1:20:13

people in the history of human human life right who from and this is midpoint estimates and and this is all estimates

1:20:19

but the midpoint estimate of when he goes to what’s Hispanola what’s now hating Dominican Republic the midpoint

1:20:25

estimate is he goes there and it’s 8 million people and this is the midpoint it might be lower it might be higher I don’t know but the middle estimate

1:20:30

and that’s 1492 when he eventually leaves in 1512 It’s estimated that there are 20,000 people left. There’s a huge

1:20:36

decimation of life when Europeans go to because and large disease, but it’s not just disease. It’s man eating dogs. It’s

1:20:41

working people to death. The the genocide in the Americas generally is the largest genocide in human history.

1:20:47

Up to 65 million people. And this is I’ve read this and I was shocked. Apparently the the world actually cooled

1:20:53

because so many people died. They were producing less uh greenhouse gas emissions and actually reduced the temperature of the earth. So the if you

1:20:59

think about the founding the founding place for the west is the Americas and

1:21:04

the founding the how the west took over the Americas was the largest genocide in human history violence and disregard for

1:21:11

life and then where did they go to find the labor after they worked to death the the natives they oh we got this African

1:21:16

slave let’s go let’s go and enslave Africans turn them into nonhumans those are the so if you say yep that barbarity

1:21:22

that anti-blackness that racism white supremacy that’s the difference 100% and that’s what allows everything else to

1:21:27

build so what I’m asking though is do you think that if West Africans, let’s say,

1:21:33

they had the ships, they had the musketss, they had the gunpowder, they had the various different types of

1:21:39

technology that enabled uh Western Europeans to go over to the Americas and do what you’re talking about, right? Do

1:21:45

you think that if the the the the West African tribes, perhaps some of those more aggressive ones that enslaved other

1:21:52

Africans, if they had all that technology and they went over to the the

1:21:57

Americas, do you think they would have behaved differently because of their different culture and background or do

1:22:03

you think they would have done the same thing? I think evidence says they did did behave differently. Like I said, there’s evidence that the Africans were in the

1:22:10

Americas thousand a thousand at least thousand years before Europeans. So I think certainly the case would be that

1:22:15

yes there is a look I’m and why do you think that is it’s look I’m I’m not going to sit here

1:22:21

and speculate it’s because there’s something better about Africans African have a morality I don’t look there’s

1:22:27

but but you just like you I mean you you it’s just the way that when you talk about whiteness

1:22:32

it’s implied the white the way that white people think or white so I want I want to be clear here that I

1:22:38

am not see I it be very easy very easy for me to sit here by who’s my favorite person back right say look this up the

1:22:44

devilish nature of the white man it just shows and people say that all the time right I’m actually saying that whiteness is not a bad

1:22:50

you don’t agree with that no I don’t I don’t think I don’t think all white people are devils have no I don’t I think that

1:22:55

the we can debate what could have happened what may have happened why it was but the reality is that it was that

1:23:01

carnage that racial exploitation that was necessary to create the society we have and that and so that that’s why we

1:23:07

have white I don’t know I can’t tell you why but I can tell you that is but what I’m asking you to think about

1:23:13

for the purposes of this guy. I think it’s really important to this discussion, right, is you you you talk about whiteness that

1:23:21

it’s kind of hard to extricate that from white people. It’s difficult for most people at least listening to this, right?

1:23:27

And it’s sort of implied within that that the way whiteness operates is worse than the way other things operate.

1:23:33

Right? And what I’m asking you is, do you think if Africans had the same ability to dominate the native

1:23:39

population of the Americas, would they have behaved the same or different? All right. So, yeah, I’ll be clear on

1:23:44

this. No, I think when you when I say whiteness is is an idea and it’s that is a that is a that is an idea that has

1:23:50

come from Western Europe. Yeah, that is an idea that has been used to dominate the world. That was a necessary feature of doing it

1:23:55

because Africans went to the new world and didn’t do this. So yes, there is something but they didn’t have the same technology

1:24:01

the musketss and as I said when Europeans came in they weren’t massively techn more technology

1:24:07

advanced they weren’t there’s a reason why the Portuguese don’t have have slave plantations in Africa they can’t they

1:24:14

they can’t literally can’t do it so it’s not the case that Europe’s first impact Europe just comes into Africa able to

1:24:20

control it’s not the case it takes a couple it takes a long time to devel on that but let me come back if they if

1:24:27

they had the technology, of course, they would have been the same. I mean, this idea that you didn’t have uh terrible

1:24:33

bloodshed happening in and prejudice and the same sort of issues of racism happening within Africa. I mean, of

1:24:39

course you did. If you know, if if you look in uh in in in the central Africa, you had the the Bantau were persecuting

1:24:45

the pygmies and killing them. If you look in Ethiopia, you had the banttos themselves were the victims and being

1:24:51

persecuted. In Somalia, the Abbiscinians were murdering and hunting the Shankella who are nyloic valley people. And this

1:24:58

is not about white supremacy. I mean, when when African slaves were taken to to to Islam uh to to the Arab world,

1:25:05

they were regarded as the the lowest social stat because the prejudices there. Same thing with with with the the

1:25:10

Chinese and the Tang dynasty who of course regarded African slaves as the Kun and were frightened by them. This

1:25:16

idea that something is unique to the West and unique to white people is simply not true. What is interesting of

1:25:21

course is the exploration ethic of Europeans which you don’t find as again China had a massive fleet. Its ships

1:25:28

were far better than European ships. It it never discovered it never discovered the Americas. You don’t see the

1:25:34

exploration that you saw within Europe. Again because of the distinction of the western mind and that whole concept of

1:25:40

exploring and developing was very much fundamentally a European concept. You know it’s amazing. For example, it also

1:25:45

goes down to individuality and the anglophere. So the first person to walk the length of the Nile was an

1:25:51

Englishman. And that happened about 10 years ago. Imagine that. After all the thousands of years, the first person to walk the length of the Nile was an

1:25:56

Englishman. First person to walk the length of the uh of the Amazon was an was an Englishman. Also, one second. One

1:26:03

second. How do you know this? Well, in recorded history. So, you don’t know. Well, I’m sorry. It would have been We do have record. We do have records, but

1:26:10

you actually don’t know. Well, nobody nobody nobody who was African or South American has done it. at least within the last 300 years of

1:26:16

recorded history. Um, and that was and the first person to walk the length of the Yangsy was a Welshman again around

1:26:22

10 years ago. Now that’s in China with an ancient civilization. Why did no one from China think about walking the length of the Yangsy? First person to

1:26:28

walk around the world and run around the world, American and English. Same thing with Everest and so forth. There is a

1:26:34

uniqueness to the West in in the idea of exploring and discovering which you don’t see elsewhere. And that’s part of

1:26:39

the reason why you developed. Your point is the British love a walk. I get it. Uh I want I do want to come back cuz I actually there is something

1:26:45

specific about European nationality which is the problem. Tell me. So there is when when and I think and

1:26:51

again you don’t believe me here but you can’t really separate whiteness from this. And so Deart’s I think therefore I am is really I’m white therefore I am.

1:26:58

In fact you’ve given this argument a bit today. There’s something different about Europe that we’re not the natives. We’re not Africans. We’re not this and that

1:27:03

allows this separation of mind from body which you actually don’t see around most of the parts of the world. So African tends to be

1:27:09

I mean the Chinese think they’re different. The Japanese think even even with the Chinese if you think about the relationship to the earth you

1:27:14

think about there’s there’s something about European nationality the distancing of it that allows

1:27:19

not not just with people but with the world with the earth with the look at look at the actual world is going to be destroyed by Europe like literally going

1:27:25

Chinese thought they were superior to the whole rest of the world they stopped developing because they thought they had reached civilization I’m not saying Chinese this is not about

1:27:32

superiority Japanese not superior I’m talking about this the separation of mind from body you don’t see that in

1:27:37

Chinese culture there’s a much more holistic version of what of what the person is. When you separate mind from

1:27:42

body in that way, you you you can then distance yourself from certain atrocities in the same in the way that we do like today people like 9 million

1:27:49

people die from hunger today because of the west and we kind of go okay the exploitation of the earth in a way that is actually going to literally destroy

1:27:54

the earth. There is I agree there’s something unique about that in western rationality which is deeply problematic which allows us to kill tom

1:28:05

we were so close to a point of agreement there cuz you were both agree and actually maybe maybe I I actually there

1:28:12

is something to what you’re saying in the sense that every everything has a trade-off right so it’s possible that a

1:28:19

particularly slightly more rationalistic way of thinking about it has some negative trade-offs and a lot of

1:28:24

positive things about it. It actually could be very possible that in some ways you’re both right on this.

Closing Remarks

1:28:30

And on that bombshell, And on that bombshell, we’ve actually managed to get the two of you to agree. No, gentlemen, I actually have to say I

1:28:36

really appreciate you both coming. I thought we had a very informative discussion. Uh these debates often descend into stuff. I thought we strayed

1:28:43

away from that as much as we could. Um we’ll wrap up in a second, but perhaps you’d like both to take a couple of minutes just to sum up based on this

1:28:49

conversation where you know just the core of your argument once again for people as we as we wrap this up.

1:28:55

I mean I I’ll finish where I started there there are no good arguments against reparators. It’s been an interesting conversation but the very

1:29:02

the fact of this is clear the knife in the back is it wasn’t taken out. And if you can acknowledge that there should

1:29:07

have been reparatory justice in 1838 or whatever and that wasn’t didn’t take place, I just don’t see how you can hold

1:29:13

the argument that it should take place. There are clear economic consequences which still reverberate around the world from slavery but not just slavery,

1:29:20

colonism, neo colonism, etc., etc., etc. There’s this huge gap in wealth and experience and and life expect not just

1:29:25

life expectancy, but just life experience in general that needs to be addressed. And if we’re serious about racial justice, the only way to do is to

1:29:31

one acknowledge it and then to address it. And that is going to need repairaratory justice. It it is it is

1:29:36

time the Caribbean nations and other communities look upon look look inwards and see what is it about our culture and

1:29:42

our community we need to change. Stop this victimhood. Learn about personal responsibility. Take agency. Improve

1:29:48

your lot and life. We in Britain should be celebrating the fact that we were the first power to deliberately make itself

1:29:54

poorer to advance a moral good. There are no living victims of British Empire slavery. And I think we need to move on

1:30:01

from this chapter and understand that at its core, this is all about undermining Britain, America, and the West more

1:30:07

broadly. This is not about slavery. If it if it was, people would be talking about modern slavery today in Africa

1:30:13

with 10 million slaves. That’s never spoken about. And surely the lives of people today are far more important. And

1:30:19

the fact that that issue isn’t even spoken about once in any article on this subject, I think, speaks volumes about

1:30:24

the true motivations behind a lot of those who are calling for reparations. All right. Well, I appreciate you both coming. Thank you for watching and

1:30:31

listening. I hope you enjoyed it. If you did, make sure to like, subscribe, and share it with others who you think might find it interesting. See you soon.

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